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Old 12-26-2018, 03:26 PM   #21
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If that were the next step, you’d have a point.

It won’t be.

So you don’t.
They're both violations of our freedom. One is just a little more bolder than the other
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:29 PM   #22
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This is one of those things that sounds fine in theory, but at the end of the day I don't trust it to be done fairly and evenly.

And the "Well if you're not doing anything wrong what do you have to hide" argument is a total cop out excuse to willingly give up freedoms, lets not even go there
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:30 PM   #23
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I don’t understand how people can be opposed to a procedure that has empirical evidence demonstrating that it contributes to saving lives.
Would you be ok if the cops confiscated your cell phone to see if you were accessing it while driving? after all, more people die that way now days than drinking and driving.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:31 PM   #24
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Would you be ok if the cops confiscated your cell phone to see if you were accessing it while driving? after all, more people die that way now days than drinking and driving.
Might as well search every single vehicle that goes through a checkstop while they're at it, just in case someone has illegal drugs or guns
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:32 PM   #25
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No it isn’t a little bolder.

Its an overreaction to a pretty benign issue that demonstrably saves lives.

Just as it has done in other countries where people just got on with it and didn’t cry about their freedom being stripped away because they had to blow into a tube, I don’t know, perhaps never?

It works effectively both as a detective control and a preventative control.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:33 PM   #26
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Might as well search every single vehicle that goes through a checkstop while they're at it, just in case someone has illegal drugs or guns
Might as well check all cell phones for child porn while you're at it. You know, to protect the children.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:34 PM   #27
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How many people are dying these days from drinking and driving? How many are innocent, ie not the driver?
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:34 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Barnet Flame View Post
No it isn’t a little bolder.

Its an overreaction to a pretty benign issue that demonstrably saves lives.

Just as it has done in other countries where people just got on with it and didn’t cry about their freedom being stripped away because they had to blow into a tube, I don’t know, perhaps never?

It works effectively both as a detective control and a preventative control.
I don't think it's a benign issue to watch freedom we are supposed to be guaranteed in the charter being removed. Also, I don't view it as a stretch to have this used by bad cops to harass and intimidate people they view as trouble makers. The naive view that this will be narrow in scope and never be abused is comical. It WILL lead to overreach.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:35 PM   #29
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Just make it part of the vehicles safety system and have every vehicle have blow boxes. Wouldn’t need check stops and people wouldn’t have their rights infringed.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:36 PM   #30
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Actually, cellphone use in cars is a major problem. I’d love to see that dealt with more proactively.

I’m not sure how that can be done, but no, that would not be practical.

As for random breathalysers it is very easy to detect where the process is being abused.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:37 PM   #31
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Actually, cellphone use in cars is a major problem. I’d love to see that dealt with more proactively.

I’m not sure how that can be done, but no, that would not be practical.

As for random breathalysers it is very easy to detect where the process is being abused.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:39 PM   #32
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To me this is in the same scope as US border agents searching your phone without needing probable cause. Sure I have nothing to hide and nothing bad is going to come from it, but that's not the point
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:41 PM   #33
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I don't think it's a benign issue to watch freedom we are supposed to be guaranteed in the charter being removed. Also, I don't view it as a stretch to have this used by bad cops to harass and intimidate people they view as trouble makers. The naive view that this will be narrow in scope and never be abused is comical. It WILL lead to overreach.
There are also false positives, a friend of mine held up a wedding(was the best man with the ring) for 45 minutes once because he blew amber on one consumed beer.

I hope this gets slaughtered in the courts
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:43 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Out 403 View Post
I don't think it's a benign issue to watch freedom we are supposed to be guaranteed in the charter being removed. Also, I don't view it as a stretch to have this used by bad cops to harass and intimidate people they view as trouble makers. The naive view that this will be narrow in scope and never be abused is comical. It WILL lead to overreach.


It would be extremely easy to detect where bad cops are abusing it by harassing individuals. Clearly, this is an emotive issue so definitely there needs to be commensurate controls accompanying the procedure.

However, we are talking about a policy that has empirical evidence demonstrating that it results in changes in behaviour that has saved significant numbers of lives. And in countries that can hardly be labelled as antagonistic toward individual liberty.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:45 PM   #35
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It would be extremely easy to detect where bad cops are abusing it by harassing individuals. Clearly, this is an emotive issue so definitely there needs to be commensurate controls accompanying the procedure.

However, we are talking about a policy that has empirical evidence demonstrating that it results in changes in behaviour that has saved significant numbers of lives. And in countries that can hardly be labelled as antagonistic toward individual liberty.
You keep saying this like it matters. It doesn't. We are discussing measure that violates the Charter. The good it supposedly will do is not what's being weighed here. Either something is a violation of our rights or it isn't. Full stop.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:47 PM   #36
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It is extraordinarily easy to implement monitoring and investigating of anomalies in cases of cops abusing their powers.

A nanosecond of analysis on an IDEA spreadsheet would demonstrate that.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:47 PM   #37
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It would be extremely easy to detect where bad cops are abusing it by harassing individuals. Clearly, this is an emotive issue so definitely there needs to be commensurate controls accompanying the procedure.
There's no other way to describe this post other than naive.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:50 PM   #38
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This debate is as old as checkstops. Same old arguments defending them and opposing them. In modern liberal democracies, personal freedoms are steadily retreating and general public just eats governments' explanations and assurances of why it's good for "the People", as a group, rather than individuals.

In a true democracy, people must be trusted to do the right thing even understanding that they don't do the right thing sometimes. This is the foundation of a true democracy. There are literally thousands of examples of how various violations of personal freedoms could lead to prevention of crime, death, medical distress, property damage, economic hardship etc. Yet, each and every inch given up in the name of those benefits deteriorates a democratic society further towards state-control.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:53 PM   #39
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You keep saying this like it matters. It doesn't. We are discussing measure that violates the Charter. The good it supposedly will do is not what's being weighed here. Either something is a violation of our rights or it isn't. Full stop.
If you’re only interested in discussing one side of the issue, then you’re incapable of discussing the issue in a meaningful way.

You should absolutely be weighing the good vs the bad. Stop acting like this issue contains no nuance.

As a solution that balances both the protection of our rights and goes a distance to protect from drunk drivers, I would be interested in the previously mentioned mandatory-breathalysers in every vehicle.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:54 PM   #40
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If you’re only interested in discussing one side of the issue, then you’re incapable of discussing the issue in a meaningful way.

You should absolutely be weighing the good vs the bad. Stop acting like this issue contains no nuance.
The debate is if this is a violation of our charter rights. The benefit has nothing to do with that debate. That's not a "side".
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