[Signing] Flames sign James Neal (5 years, 5.75 AAV)

[Ped]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

This post has logical fallacies.

First, Bennett plays defence adequately enough to be a forward on the PK, in which he has to take the middle of the ice equally with his co-forward.

Second, it's not necessarily the case that a player can't do better at C than at W. It will depend on where they are comfortable, where their skill set lies. I just know that I see Bennett trying to carry the puck to the middle, and not rush down the wing. My point, I guess, is, that Bennett has grown as a player, and perhaps the flaws from previous seasons that kept him from being an effective centre have been addressed.

Being a successful PKer does not equal being a player capable playing at center at both ends of the ice.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ped

Being a successful PKer does not equal being a player capable playing at center at both ends of the ice.

No, certainly not. But it was suggested he couldn't play C because of a lack of defence. I don't think that's the case. If anything, he's better at that end. And on the PK he has to play a role more similar to even strength centre in his own end, because of the rotation involved.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

If i had it my way, I’d keep Bennett on the 3rd line with Jankowski and maybe a Quine and have these guys play a heavier game. Have these guys win puck battles, cycle down low, get the puck back to the point and then crash the net. The best I’ve even seen Bennett and Jankowski play was in December of 2017 with Jagr when they played a heavier game down low.

It’s too bad the Flames couldn’t land Patrick Maroon instead because he would’ve been a better fit on this team. As for James Neal, guy has played with every single player on this team and in all offensive zone situations and he just can’t figure it out. In his better games he still can’t produce and in bad games, he might be the worst player on the ice.

The Flames just don’t seem to have a player who can work with him. He’s too easy to cover, gets frustrated too easily, can’t seem to make plays and he can’t seem to finish when the chance arrives once in a blue moon. I know a lot people are holding out that once he scores, the floodgates will open. But I just don’t see that happening because I don’t think it’s a confidence issue. It’s not like it happened when he scored against Colorado. The fit just isn’t good.

This is a little part of the problem. He's played with lots of combos, but not much consistency with one combo. This is not really a complaint against Peters, who I think wants to keep the top two lines intact and the bottom six by nature is going to change often. But Neal strikes me as a guy who needs consistency in at least a centre. He played almost 70% of last season with one centre (Haula). He had Perron on the line something like 65% as well.

This year he's played with Janko 20%, Backlund 15%, Ryan 15%, etc. It says Monahan 9% but I think that's only for 3 or 4 1/2 shifts after a PK over the season.

Don't get me wrong - Neal has not played well. But given he's here for a while and not going to be benched IMO, I think it's necessary to consider what can be done to get him going. And, let's face it, Bennett could use an offensive jolt as well.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't see anything better from Jankowski though. Ryan may be smarter, but not skilled enough to do what he wants to do with the puck.

Jankowski is already an effective penalty killer. And while it's marginal (12 to 11 to 10), both he and Ryan have more points than Bennett.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Jankowski is already an effective penalty killer. And while it's marginal (12 to 11 to 10), both he and Ryan have more points than Bennett.

Jankowski's points come playing mostly 4th line, and where he is driving the play.
Bennett has been put with quality line mates this year, yet his production stays the same. If one wants to try Bennett at center on the 4th line, ok I guess. I'm a big fan of Bennett, but he must be kept away from any of the first 2 'scoring lines'.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

This is a little part of the problem. He's played with lots of combos, but not much consistency with one combo. This is not really a complaint against Peters, who I think wants to keep the top two lines intact and the bottom six by nature is going to change often. But Neal strikes me as a guy who needs consistency in at least a centre. He played almost 70% of last season with one centre (Haula). He had Perron on the line something like 65% as well.

This year he's played with Janko 20%, Backlund 15%, Ryan 15%, etc. It says Monahan 9% but I think that's only for 3 or 4 1/2 shifts after a PK over the season.

Don't get me wrong - Neal has not played well. But given he's here for a while and not going to be benched IMO, I think it's necessary to consider what can be done to get him going. And, let's face it, Bennett could use an offensive jolt as well.

We could honestly give all the time in world for Neal to play with certain linemates for consistency purposes, but the lack of chemistry is just so evident that I don't think it'll help. Haula and Perron helped cover up Neal's shortcomings because they like having the puck on their sticks and can draw defenders and make plays whereas Neal seems to struggle when the puck is on his stick and he's pressured to make a play.

I don't personally think scratching Neal will help either because I don't think it's effort that's keeping him from scoring. Even in games where he's clearly engaged and skating near or at his best, he still can't score or look consistently dangerous. It's clearly a fit problem and I'd honestly be looking at all avenues for a trade.

There's no way a proud veteran sniper like Neal could possibly be happy in this current situation. I bet he'd welcome a trade or even demand one once the fans start to really get on him. We're happy now since we're winning, but the fanbase also turned on Troy Brouwer really quickly and as improbable as it is, Neal's contract looks to be even worse.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

We could honestly give all the time in world for Neal to play with certain linemates for consistency purposes, but the lack of chemistry is just so evident that I don't think it'll help. Haula and Perron helped cover up Neal's shortcomings because they like having the puck on their sticks and can draw defenders and make plays whereas Neal seems to struggle when the puck is on his stick and he's pressured to make a play.

I don't personally think scratching Neal will help either because I don't think it's effort that's keeping him from scoring. Even in games where he's clearly engaged and skating near or at his best, he still can't score or look consistently dangerous. It's clearly a fit problem and I'd honestly be looking at all avenues for a trade.

There's no way a proud veteran sniper like Neal could possibly be happy in this current situation. I bet he'd welcome a trade or even demand one once the fans start to really get on him. We're happy now since we're winning, but the fanbase also turned on Troy Brouwer really quickly and as improbable as it is, Neal's contract looks to be even worse.

The only way Neal's contract is able to be moved is if the Flames take an equally bad contract back, which appear to be very few a far between thanks to the duration. Treliving will probably have to hope that the current CBA gets trashed in 2020 and he can use a compliance buyout on Neal

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

We could honestly give all the time in world for Neal to play with certain linemates for consistency purposes, but the lack of chemistry is just so evident that I don't think it'll help. Haula and Perron helped cover up Neal's shortcomings because they like having the puck on their sticks and can draw defenders and make plays whereas Neal seems to struggle when the puck is on his stick and he's pressured to make a play.

Well, I don;t see it as covering his shortcomings as opposed to meshing well with his strengths (he potted goals).

There are players who like having the puck on this team though. However, neither Jankowski or Ryan are in that group. I often think Jankowski passes too soon. And Ryan isn't a great passer. The trouble is, all the puck hogs are on other, more set, lines.

The best centre solution for Neal, aside from a trade, is Lindholm and that has costs which might outweigh the benefits.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

The only way Neal's contract is able to be moved is if the Flames take an equally bad contract back, which appear to be very few a far between thanks to the duration. Treliving will probably have to hope that the current CBA gets trashed in 2020 and he can use a compliance buyout on Neal

That's too long. The Flames are cup contenders now and will need the player or the cap space in order to contend every year. It's not like they can bank on a compliance buyout either because that might not even happen. The owners love the current CBA because they asked to extend it in return for the playoffs, so I don't personally see a compliance buyout happening.

There are some bad contracts out there that can be swapped. I'm looking at Schneider in New Jersey and Berglund in Buffalo specifically. Both have 1 less year than Neal which is very valuable from a buyout point of view. I wonder if the Islanders would consider a Andrew Ladd for Neal swap as well. There's certainly potential suitors out there if Neal's nightmare season continues.

[Zulu29]

I’m as disappointed in Neal’s season as anyone, but he’s not hurting the team at this point. I would think that there will be an addition to the roster through a trade soon, perhaps it would be worthwhile to see how that plays out and where the pieces fit before jettisoning a perennial 20 goal scorer?

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

I’m as disappointed in Neil’s season as anyone, but he’s not hurting the team at this point. I would think that there will be an addition to the roster through a trade soon, perhaps it would be worthwhile to see how that plays out and where the pieces fit before jettisoning a perennial 20 goal scorer?

If we need to give up more assets than the significant contract Neal signed in the offseason to bring in another player to do what he was supposed to do, then yes, he's hurting the team at that point.

Im just hoping for the Flames to continue what theyre doing and for somehow, someway, Neal finds a way to be a semi-important piece down the stretch and into the playoffs.

That tape job tho...

[Zulu29]

Double post

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

I’m as disappointed in Neil’s season as anyone, but he’s not hurting the team at this point. I would think that there will be an addition to the roster through a trade soon, perhaps it would be worthwhile to see how that plays out and where the pieces fit before jettisoning a perennial 20 goal scorer?

This keeps getting repeated on this forum and it doesn't make a lot of sense. First, Neal is hurting the team with his poor defensive play. The miracle comeback against the Flyers was only needed because he and Smith played like trash, and having an offensively minded player who can't score really limits what you can do with the bottom 6. You can't use Neal in a checking role to at least get some use out of him


Plus everything is going right for the Flames at the moment. Top offense, top defense, great special teams, so yeah Neal's flaws can be overlooked at the moment. But as soon as the Flames hit a lull in any part of their game, guys like Neal are the difference between weathering the storm or dropping out of a home ice playoff spot. I just hope Treliving is working on some kind of plan to work around Neal if he continues to degrade

[442scotty]

Neal not playing tonight... upper body injury which in his case maybe it’s an injury to an area of the brain governing intensity and loss of hockey IQ

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

I’m as disappointed in Neal’s season as anyone, but he’s not hurting the team at this point. I would think that there will be an addition to the roster through a trade soon, perhaps it would be worthwhile to see how that plays out and where the pieces fit before jettisoning a perennial 20 goal scorer?

James Neal is not hurting the team right now in the same way that Mike Smith isn't hurting the team right now. Our team is winning in spite of these 2 because their ability can overcome these player's performances each night.

Neal is a team worst -9, has 3 goals, takes a lot of bad penalties and yet plays 15 prime minutes a game. We're talking PP minutes, nothing on the penalty kill and yet somehow, he still can't find a way to help the team in a meaningful way.

When talking about how he's really hurting the team, it comes down to opportunity cost. If someone else like Alan Quine or Mark Jankowski played in Neal's exact position with gifted minutes and opportunistic situations. How much better would these guys be is the question? Considering that these guys have already surpassed him production wise IMO, I think it's safe to say they'd be helping the team out way more. That to me, means James Neal is hurting the team a lot.

If I'm Treliving, I'm sweating right now because with every passing game, Neal's contract looks worse and worse and even though it hasn't directly hurt the team yet, it has very high potential to because of the amount of cap space he takes up and the extremely inefficient/ineffective play. When games start to ramp up and games become tougher to win, if Neal hasn't significantly improved, this thread will get ugly. It almost feels like I'm staring at an oncoming storm from the horizon right now. It feels calm right now, but it looks like it could get scary any minute now.

[Zulu29]

James Neal is not hurting the team right now in the same way that Mike Smith isn't hurting the team right now. Our team is winning in spite of these 2 because their ability can overcome these player's performances each night.

Completely different positions and roles of responsibility, but since you brought it up I’ll bite. How many times has James Neal directly contributed to a loss?

Neal is a team worst -9, has 3 goals, takes a lot of bad penalties and yet plays 15 prime minutes a game. We're talking PP minutes, nothing on the penalty kill and yet somehow, he still can't find a way to help the team in a meaningful way.

When talking about how he's really hurting the team, it comes down to opportunity cost. If someone else like Alan Quine or Mark Jankowski played in Neal's exact position with gifted minutes and opportunistic situations. How much better would these guys be is the question? Considering that these guys have already surpassed him production wise IMO, I think it's safe to say they'd be helping the team out way more. That to me, means James Neal is hurting the team a lot.

If I'm Treliving, I'm sweating right now because with every passing game, Neal's contract looks worse and worse and even though it hasn't directly hurt the team yet, it has very high potential to because of the amount of cap space he takes up and the extremely inefficient/ineffective play.

Which is why it would make sense for the team to try and get him going rather than trade him for junk or another team. I’m not happy with his play, but I’d rather give him the season to figure it out that make a knee jerk reaction right now.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

James Neal is not hurting the team right now in the same way that Mike Smith isn't hurting the team right now. Our team is winning in spite of these 2 because their ability can overcome these player's performances each night.

Completely different positions and roles of responsibility, but since you brought it up I’ll bite. How many times has James Neal directly contributed to a loss?

Neal is a team worst -9, has 3 goals, takes a lot of bad penalties and yet plays 15 prime minutes a game. We're talking PP minutes, nothing on the penalty kill and yet somehow, he still can't find a way to help the team in a meaningful way.

When talking about how he's really hurting the team, it comes down to opportunity cost. If someone else like Alan Quine or Mark Jankowski played in Neal's exact position with gifted minutes and opportunistic situations. How much better would these guys be is the question? Considering that these guys have already surpassed him production wise IMO, I think it's safe to say they'd be helping the team out way more. That to me, means James Neal is hurting the team a lot.

If I'm Treliving, I'm sweating right now because with every passing game, Neal's contract looks worse and worse and even though it hasn't directly hurt the team yet, it has very high potential to because of the amount of cap space he takes up and the extremely inefficient/ineffective play.

Which is why it would make sense for the team to try and get him going rather than trade him for junk or another team. I’m not happy with his play, but I’d rather give him the season to figure it out that make a knee jerk reaction right now.

Funny, you could say similar things about Sam Bennett, who I would suggest he is the worst offender on the team for lack of production based on opportunity given on the second line. Neal is certainly having a bad year and producing like a fourth liner but he still draws a lot of attention on the ice and is a useful player. I would still not bet against him finishing with 12-15 goals and 30-35 points. Not ideal, but given he's a third liner right now, there's not much more you can expect out of him.

[FlamesFanTrev]

How many people wanted Treliving fired because of what he gave up for a stuggling Hamonic last year. This year it looks completely justified, if not a win for Treliving. 30+ games into a wildly good season, and we are writting James Neal off. Its still a knee jerk reaction, and to talk about trading a bad contract for James Neal is absolute craziness. Can't we just be happy with all the W's, and recognize that there is no reason to do anything at this point? Time is an asset, if you have it, use it.

[Aarongavey]

I think the reason why fans are worried about Neal is that based on the history of players between the ages 31-35 there should be no realistic expectation that he comes close to his production from 26-30. Past production for players in his age group is no indication of future performance. 12-15 goals a year is all that we should expect from him.

[TheScorpion]

I get serious David Jones vibes from James Neal, both in that I try really hard to like him but I feel like he won't ever live up to his contract. Also, they skate very similarly.

Jones was good in the playoffs, though, so there's a silver lining.