You would be wrong about that. Peruse the early pages of this thread and the prospect-ranking threads and you will see a lot of posters raise these two concerns about Fox’s game: 1) his average skating and size, and 2) the fact he plays in a weak NCAA conference. This is not new. There is a reason Fox was not drafted until the second round, and Flames fans have been cautiously optimistic for a while.
Fox is a really good prospect. He is not the best prospect the Flames have ever had, to say nothing of the fact that there were better players in the system at the time of the trade.
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I don’t disagree with your last paragraph and I’m sure people did raise those issues in this thread - after he was traded and no longer a CGY asset.
It could be that people were consistently raising those issues when he was drafted and in CGY system. I don’t recall that. I recall people commenting on how good he was in his freshman year and how good he looked playing with and against top competition at international events.
I was happy with this deal at the time, but I like it even more today. I think the trade is just good asset management by the Flames.
Looking at clips of Carolina highlites, Hamilton hasn't changed or improved in the defensive zone. If you watch him closely, a lot of his defensive mistakes are hidden by other players. When he doesn't get that benefit, Hamilton gets exposed.
There's two clips from this youtube highlite clip that sum up what you get with Hamilton.
0:20 seconds in: Islanders forward has the puck. Hamilton is drifting with his ass defending the Carolina bench door leaving a wide open seam in the middle. The Carolina forward stops pressing and Hamilton doesn't have a play. He actually cuts backwards first because he has to make a C with his back leg to try and come back to the middle. The Islanders player blows past "smooth skating" Hamilton and its a goal.
1:30 seconds in: Hamilton goes back to retrieve puck. He slows down and makes a soft play. He gets knocked off the puck easily, leads to a scramble and almost a goal.
At the time, I didn't know anything about Lindholm or Hanafin, but I was already onboard with the trade. Hamilton was close to peak value. He put up another year where he got plenty of goals (at the expense of Giordano's production). His corsi stats were great as they always have been. 6'5". Cost certain contract at $5.75 million for the next 2 years. There is a lot to like about Hamilton on paper.
Offensively, I think he's likely getting a bit unlucky with Carolina this year, but I don't think he's the offensive driver his stats would indicate. He's a Mike Green / Dennis Wideman type defenseman. He'll put up points. He'll shoot the puck, but he doesn't have that creative element to his game.
I am not even that high on Hanafin yet, but he is cheaper, younger, and on a better contract. If he can round out his defensive game, this trade will keep tilting for the Flames.
I liked Ferland a lot more than Hamilton, but it is pretty clear that Lindholm is a better player and better fit on top line. Lindholm is coming in at under $5 million for the next 6 years. Ferland is in a prime position to be overpaid as a UFA.
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It's a lot of points. ECAC doesn't graduate a lot of NHL players though, and guys like Haggerty often pile up points but never make it.
Jimmy Vesey is a good player
Alex Kerfoot is a good player
Ryan Donato is a good player
All out of Harvard. Harvard seems to produce good NHL players, I suspect that Fox will be another player that has a good NHL career coming out of Harvard.
I don’t disagree with your last paragraph and I’m sure people did raise those issues in this thread - after he was traded and no longer a CGY asset.
It could be that people were consistently raising those issues when he was drafted and in CGY system. I don’t recall that. I recall people commenting on how good he was in his freshman year and how good he looked playing with and against top competition at international events.
I can only speak for myself, but I have had him behind the other D prospects each year, for those reasons (skating and size). Still a great prospect, but for a defenseman, those are legitimate concerns.
2016 voting:
Fox 18th, 6th among Dmen - I had him 24th
2017 voting:
Fox 9th, 4th among Dmen, I had him 9th (and 4th D)
So I guess I was pretty similar to the group, and yes, the general consensus had him behind the other D prospects. We don't know where he would have gone in 2018, of course - I would bet he would have climbed above Kylington, but no way he would have passed Valimaki or Andersson. And for me, I still would have had him behind Kylington as well.
Again, great prospect, but we have had a bunch of good D prospects and the general consensus had him right where people are now claiming he was.
Jimmy Vesey is a good player
Alex Kerfoot is a good player
Ryan Donato is a good player
All out of Harvard. Harvard seems to produce good NHL players, I suspect that Fox will be another player that has a good NHL career coming out of Harvard.
All 3 of those guys are meh imo. I mean Donato hasn’t looked like an NHLer and the other 2 are above average NHL players but nothing to write home about.
Carolina was easy pickings for Treliving, they seem to have awful player management there along with a losing culture with zero fan base. It makes total sense that the 3 players they let go are having big years. Carolina let go a guy on pace for 50+ goals, a 21 year top 4 offensive Dman, and a player who could very well hit 70 pts. We were told Hanifin wasn’t a top 4 guy and Lindholm was a 40-50 pt guy. Boy did they give up two studs on 2 extremely reasonable contacts and let Skinner go for chump change. Oh and they let a good coach walk away too. Flames scouted the Hurricanes perfectly, while also having a coach that knew these two players very well. I understand maybe trading Hanifin because they have a solid D core but man did they ever #### up letting Lindholm go. Such a good 2 way player on just a sexy sexy contract. This trade looks better and better for the flames every passing week. Treliving nailed this one
Canes didn’t give up Lindholm or Hanifin with their great contracts. They were RFA’s and Treliving did the solid work to get them signed. By all accounts the Canes tried to keep Lindholm but the contract negotiations were going poorly so they moved on. The deal for both teams was about shaking up the locker room. The Flames wanted a right shot forward and comprable replacement on D. The Canes wanted a physical forward and got the best player in the trade at the time (who had 3 years left on his deal) and also squeezed a top prospect out of the Flames.
I really think it was a great trade for both teams but if Ferland walks, and Fox doesn’t sign it will be a huge loss for the Canes. What I love is the Flames drafted Ferland in the 5th round, Fox in the 3rd, and used a mid 1st and 2 mid 2nds to get Dougie. Those pieces allowed them to get 2 guys drafted 5th overall within the last 3-5 years.
If you would have told me in 2013 we would have 5 guys picked in the top 6 by the time theb18/19 season rolled around I would believe you. We just entered a scorched earth rebuild and got peanuts for our Franchise winger and top D. Luckily as Flames fans we only had to witness 3 poor years to draft those players ourselves and this trade got us the other 2.
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarongavey
Jimmy Vesey is a good player
Alex Kerfoot is a good player
Ryan Donato is a good player
All out of Harvard. Harvard seems to produce good NHL players, I suspect that Fox will be another player that has a good NHL career coming out of Harvard.
The Ivy league rarely produces "great" players.
I would think Nieuwendyk and Ken Dryden are the best of them....and that spans 50 years to include them.
Jimmy Vesey is a good player
Alex Kerfoot is a good player
Ryan Donato is a good player
All out of Harvard. Harvard seems to produce good NHL players, I suspect that Fox will be another player that has a good NHL career coming out of Harvard.
That's not exactly the level of player the people bemoaning his loss are talking about. They think he will be a star, and that's not those guys. Maybe he will be different but it's a way different leap. Especially for a defenceman IMO.
Vesey may be the high water mark since the Newy days.
That's not exactly the level of player the people bemoaning his loss are talking about. They think he will be a star, and that's not those guys. Maybe he will be different but it's a way different leap. Especially for a defenceman IMO.
Vesey may be the high water mark since the Newy days.
Well Kerfoot had 43 points last year and is on pace for 55 points in his second year. He likely turns into a consistent 50 to 60 point guy. From his draft year only Forsberg, Galchenyuk and Gostisbehere (ECAC) have more points per game.
I am not sure the conference is as indicative of the likelihood that a player will turn out as the individual program is. Recent history says that Harvard is likely to develop NHL players.
I was happy with this deal at the time, but I like it even more today. I think the trade is just good asset management by the Flames.
Looking at clips of Carolina highlites, Hamilton hasn't changed or improved in the defensive zone. If you watch him closely, a lot of his defensive mistakes are hidden by other players. When he doesn't get that benefit, Hamilton gets exposed.
There's two clips from this youtube highlite clip that sum up what you get with Hamilton.
0:20 seconds in: Islanders forward has the puck. Hamilton is drifting with his ass defending the Carolina bench door leaving a wide open seam in the middle. The Carolina forward stops pressing and Hamilton doesn't have a play. He actually cuts backwards first because he has to make a C with his back leg to try and come back to the middle. The Islanders player blows past "smooth skating" Hamilton and its a goal.
1:30 seconds in: Hamilton goes back to retrieve puck. He slows down and makes a soft play. He gets knocked off the puck easily, leads to a scramble and almost a goal.
At the time, I didn't know anything about Lindholm or Hanafin, but I was already onboard with the trade. Hamilton was close to peak value. He put up another year where he got plenty of goals (at the expense of Giordano's production). His corsi stats were great as they always have been. 6'5". Cost certain contract at $5.75 million for the next 2 years. There is a lot to like about Hamilton on paper.
Offensively, I think he's likely getting a bit unlucky with Carolina this year, but I don't think he's the offensive driver his stats would indicate. He's a Mike Green / Dennis Wideman type defenseman. He'll put up points. He'll shoot the puck, but he doesn't have that creative element to his game.
I am not even that high on Hanafin yet, but he is cheaper, younger, and on a better contract. If he can round out his defensive game, this trade will keep tilting for the Flames.
I liked Ferland a lot more than Hamilton, but it is pretty clear that Lindholm is a better player and better fit on top line. Lindholm is coming in at under $5 million for the next 6 years. Ferland is in a prime position to be overpaid as a UFA.
Hamilton looks brutal in that clip.
And the new islander jerseys are so good it makes me not hate blue and orange.
Well Kerfoot had 43 points last year and is on pace for 55 points in his second year. He likely turns into a consistent 50 to 60 point guy. From his draft year only Forsberg, Galchenyuk and Gostisbehere (ECAC) have more points per game.
I am not sure the conference is as indicative of the likelihood that a player will turn out as the individual program is. Recent history says that Harvard is likely to develop NHL players.
They have some but I don't think you can really make that conclusion. Look at BC: 20 current players that I can think of, some at the peak of the NHL.
I don't see how Kerfoot has any relation to what Fox will do in the NHL. Silly argument.
It is silly when someone does not read the entire thread and then pontificates on what a silly argument is. It was said that the ECAC did not produce many NHLers, I pointed out that Harvard produced 3 NHLers in the last 3 years and that the program at that school produces NHL players. It was then said that the 3 NHLers that were produced were not good players and then I pointed out that Kerfoot actually is pretty good.
The relation is that they both were groomed in the same program. Understand?
Is it possible this was a good trade for both teams? The flames are deep with defensive prospects. Dealt from a position of strength. Canes get two quality players (one pending Ufa) and a top prospect. Flames get two quality players who were RFAs.
