Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

On a non game day, it’s deserted. Just some chain restaurants surrounding two cavernous buildings and miles of concrete parking lots. I think it’s the exact opposite of what Calgary should aspire to with this.

I would hope that the Flames don't build a rink in Cochrane. I think that's the analogy you were trying to draw.

As for the facilities themselves they are quite nice. Saying that they are awful is factually incorrect.

[InglewoodFan]

Just saw on the news that the East Village CRL has been renewed for another 20 years. The big news out of it was expansion of the BMO convention centre, but I have to think it will be touted as a funding mechanism for the proposed arena event centre.

[flamesfan55]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Hey, I have this revolutionary idea guys... instead of saying that you heard something you actually say what you heard.

I'm not sharing what I heard as this person was part of a closed door meeting. From what was mentioned to me is the news is coming in the new year. Was also informed there is some bad news that plays into the arena.

If mods want to message me directly to clarify I have no issue with that.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Are we talking about the hockey/football complex in Glendale, which is awful. Or the basketball/ baseball downtown area? If the latter, I don't really have an opinion.

I don't really see how you can compare any possible Calgary development plan to something on the Vegas strip. There were a million things to do/places to eat before T Mobil. It filled in some empty space in one of the world's biggest tourist areas.

I was talking about the basketball/baseball area, which is very nice. Though I really don't mind the Glendale rec area for what it is.

In Vegas I'm specifically talking about the Parq area which is about a half block worth of pubs and restaurants, plus some outdoor spaces. The only reason that was developed (away from the card-riffling/low rent bar area that it was) was that T-Mobil was built, and that's what could be recreated in Calgary.

[Tyler]

BMO expansion looks cool!



I'm getting the sense that CMLC is wanting a lot of natural wood and glass to be the standard design features in Victoria Park.

Source (Global): https://globalnews.ca/video/4726696/...ion-in-calgary

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

On a non game day, it’s deserted. Just some chain restaurants surrounding two cavernous buildings and miles of concrete parking lots. I think it’s the exact opposite of what Calgary should aspire to with this.

Deserted in the Desert. They should have dirt bike races on Non-game days.

[Muta]

The extension of 17th Avenue through Stampede Park with a redeveloped Stampede LRT Station is right around the corner too. The plans look awesome.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Tyler

BMO expansion looks cool!



I'm getting the sense that CMLC is wanting a lot of natural wood and glass to be the standard design features in Victoria Park.

Source (Global): https://globalnews.ca/video/4726696/...ion-in-calgary

Better look than the Tin can UFO look in Edmonton.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The best arenas are the best (IMO) because of the amenities around them - Phoenix, Vegas, LA, etc.

Well, one of these things is not like the other. "Phoenix" was built out in the middle of farm fields in Glendale. The arena was built first and was considered out of the way. The football stadium and the entertainment district would not come on line for another three years, and the other amenities would organically develop as urban sprawl in the NW part of the valley continued. It wasn't like LA or Vegas where there was a substantial presence around the location to begin with, this was a masterplanned space, and it still isn't a destination other than game days.

If you put the arena on Tsu Tina land, there are no restaurants or amenities nearby. Also, no pre-existing parking, so you have to build thousands of spots (and charge for all of them).

I suggested this as an alternative to building downtown during another thread when the combined event center concept was under discussion. If the Flames really wanted to stick it to CoC, this is a good way to do it. I doubt the local first nations people would give a lick about what they would have to build. That is revenue and jobs coming in, and another driver to their casino. Also gives them more pressure to apply to the City and Province for a better deal to complete the ring road.

As someone said, it would be detrimental for corporate participation, so you're swimming upstream with respect to revenues as well.

Why would it be detrimental to corporate participation? I don't understand this angle?

Then there is the issue of nearby development (hotels, office towers etc). Just no incentive for any of the participants to want to go there.

Build it and they will come? It's not like this is a terribly remote location. It's 10km from the downtown core, or 1.5km more than a trip to UofC. As an alternative they could pick worse locations.


The best location is still downtown. I don't see any reason why a deal will not be struck for a Victoria Park location. I'm personally not a fan of this location, but based on the CoC goals, it seems to make the most sense. I was hoping for something much more grand and epic in scale, but this is a reasonable compromise. I expect a deal to be struck before the end of the season. Both the City and the Flames will need something, and hopefully a playoff berth and playoff run will generate some excitement and public support behind a deal.

[sleepingmoose]

Originally Posted by Muta

The extension of 17th Avenue through Stampede Park with a redeveloped Stampede LRT Station is right around the corner too. The plans look awesome.

It's all awesome until the first person gets hit by a train there on day 2. What a terrible place for a level crossing.....
I understand why people want it, but I'm not sure adding MORE interactions between people, cars and CTrains is the best idea.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by sleepingmoose

It's all awesome until the first person gets hit by a train there on day 2. What a terrible place for a level crossing.....
I understand why people want it, but I'm not sure adding MORE interactions between people, cars and CTrains is the best idea.

The original suggestion was to put it underground right from downtown to the other side of Cemetery Hill. There is not enough money to do that, even though it's the right solution.

[Ozy_Flame]

As much as we rag on Edmonton, having the trains underground in the core has been a very positive and convenient experience, especially as it pertains to moving in and out faster. Wish Calgary had done the same - even if small chunks at a time.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Muta

The original suggestion was to put it underground right from downtown to the other side of Cemetery Hill. There is not enough money to do that, even though it's the right solution.

The obvious danger of that suggestion: Zombies.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

I would hope that the Flames don't build a rink in Cochrane. I think that's the analogy you were trying to draw.

As for the facilities themselves they are quite nice. Saying that they are awful is factually incorrect.

It's about a dozen chain restaurants and a giant movie theatre. Similar concepts were built in many American cities (Houston, Dallas, Nashville are ones I can think of) with no connection to an arena.

It caters to tourists vs, citizens and requires massive space, parking etc. IMO it's nice in a way if you think giant new shopping malls are nice. But you could plop an area like that downtown (which no one would because of its giant footprint) and you would still get limited use.

I thought Calgary was looking for more of an urban space, that incorporates multi use facilities (residential, parks, shopping, gathering places etc.). The Glendale concept screams white elephant in today's world.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

As much as we rag on Edmonton, having the trains underground in the core has been a very positive and convenient experience, especially as it pertains to moving in and out faster. Wish Calgary had done the same - even if small chunks at a time.

At this point, it would be a huge win if even just the Red line went through that 8th ave tunnel. That way the lines don't have to share 7th ave, which would probably help with the timing of the lights for the cars. It also won't cripple both lines when there is a mechanical issue or accident on the 7th ave corridor.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by New Era

Why would it be detrimental to corporate participation? I don't understand this angle?


Build it and they will come? It's not like this is a terribly remote location. It's 10km from the downtown core, or 1.5km more than a trip to UofC. As an alternative they could pick worse locations.

You answered your own question. It's just not the same as being walking distance/1-4 train stops away. Staying an hour extra at work, or grabbing a pint downtown before heading over to the game seems a lot easier than driving yourself or getting a shuttle to the outskirts.

Of course, they could mitigate this with VIP shuttles. The experience could actually be pretty good - leaving downtown at 6pm, you'd have very little rush hour. But, this would not be cheap. Making this work well would also all be predicated on having airport style access/egress - while it shouldn't be too hard to design well, it's unlikely that they would nail it perfectly.

It comes down to one thing: what do the people making the decisions to buy corporate boxes want? Many of them would be in their SW&NW beds sooner after a game, but there would still be a big psychological barrier to going further away. Also, inconvenient for hosting clients from out of town, who have to get back to their DT hotels.

Keeping close to status to status quo, and these decision makers will keep status quo and sign off as always, even including a significant increase. If you make a big change (location), it is more likely that the decision maker considers it more closely...suddenly they are actually scrutinizing the 50% price increase. Do we really need 41+ nights of boxes each year? I already know the 8 times a year my big hockey fan clients are coming to town...we'll just buy tix as necessary, and go to a nice steakhouse more often for hosting instead.

Originally Posted by sleepingmoose

It's all awesome until the first person gets hit by a train there on day 2. What a terrible place for a level crossing.....
I understand why people want it, but I'm not sure adding MORE interactions between people, cars and CTrains is the best idea.

Is the latest plan for it to be level? A few years back I thought the plan was to tunnel one or the other?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Robbob

At this point, it would be a huge win if even just the Red line went through that 8th ave tunnel. That way the lines don't have to share 7th ave, which would probably help with the timing of the lights for the cars. It also won't cripple both lines when there is a mechanical issue or accident on the 7th ave corridor.

Does anyone know the exact location/length of the tunnel? I guess the biggest infrastructure issue would be having to actually build all of the stations below, again... (then needing double the transit cops, etc.) - seems like an all or none proposition.

The best use of the existing tunnels might be for eventual HSR. The biggest challenge in twinning the existing CP tracks all the way to Banff would be the stretch from 14 st SW to the Elbow river. It would be interesting if they could connect a route from the existing tunnel all the way to CP tracks west of Crowchild as part of the eventual West Village remediations/realignment.

Wouldn't be hard to keep it as one big trunk with both directions of Bow Trail immediately south of the tracks. Maybe 4 Ave only feeds into this express trunk and 6 ave connects to the surface streets of WV.

Even if rail (hyperloop?) to Banff is half a century away, it would be prudent to build with it in mind whenever they start scooping up the soil in WV.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Does anyone know the exact location/length of the tunnel? I guess the biggest infrastructure issue would be having to actually build all of the stations below, again... (then needing double the transit cops, etc.) - seems like an all or none proposition.

The best use of the existing tunnels might be for eventual HSR. The biggest challenge in twinning the existing CP tracks all the way to Banff would be the stretch from 14 st SW to the Elbow river. It would be interesting if they could connect a route from the existing tunnel all the way to CP tracks west of Crowchild as part of the eventual West Village remediations/realignment.

Wouldn't be hard to keep it as one big trunk with both directions of Bow Trail immediately south of the tracks. Maybe 4 Ave only feeds into this express trunk and 6 ave connects to the surface streets of WV.

Even if rail (hyperloop?) to Banff is half a century away, it would be prudent to build with it in mind whenever they start scooping up the soil in WV.

It is under 8th ave. I found this old report global (2008) report about the tunnel that has some video. Sounds like it goes from city hall to 10st.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7YBZvhVwgk

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Does anyone know the exact location/length of the tunnel? I guess the biggest infrastructure issue would be having to actually build all of the stations below, again... (then needing double the transit cops, etc.) - seems like an all or none proposition.

The best use of the existing tunnels might be for eventual HSR. The biggest challenge in twinning the existing CP tracks all the way to Banff would be the stretch from 14 st SW to the Elbow river. It would be interesting if they could connect a route from the existing tunnel all the way to CP tracks west of Crowchild as part of the eventual West Village remediations/realignment.

Wouldn't be hard to keep it as one big trunk with both directions of Bow Trail immediately south of the tracks. Maybe 4 Ave only feeds into this express trunk and 6 ave connects to the surface streets of WV.

Even if rail (hyperloop?) to Banff is half a century away, it would be prudent to build with it in mind whenever they start scooping up the soil in WV.

The Red Line will eventually go under 8th ave. A small amount of infrastructure is already there for that.

CP Rail/HSR tunnel is a non-starter. WAY too expensive for the benefit you would get. Virtually impossible to make it work to have significant benefit anyway.

[Fuzz]

Putting the arena in the middle of nowhere makes no sense. Think of the population density within a few km of where it is now, and what that density looks like in 25 years. Then need to plan for the future, too. A lot of those people won't even have vehicles. It's a huge population that right now has an easy way to go to the game, and I'd bet 90% of them would never go if they had to drive.