[PGT] Flames come back to beat the Coilers 4-2

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by transplant99

There is absolutely no way you can make that claim and substantiate it.

I know. I mean, I could go through every game in the last decade and record when and why they were hurt and then look at the roster for that night and check if there was a goon on the bench.

But that is way too much work, and I know i'm right.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I know. I mean, I could go through every game in the last decade and record when and why they were hurt and then look at the roster for that night and check if there was a goon on the bench.

But that is way too much work, and I know i'm right.

Sure..........but even if you did that, the point is you can't record the injuries that didn't happened, because there is nothing to record. It's close to impossible to prove either way.....

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Sure..........but even if you did that, the point is you can't record the injuries that didn't happened, because there is nothing to record. It's close to impossible to prove either way.....

But I can record the times that star players were hurt when they had a goon dressed and infer the rest from there.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

But I can record the times that star players were hurt when they had a goon dressed and infer the rest from there.

How? You'll still have 0 idea of how many times the star player would have been hurt beyond how many times they were hurt if the goon wasn't there. I guess if you had a two star players of equal value, one on a team with a goon, one with out, over a period of a few seasons you could maybe see how more often (if at all) the player with no goon was injured...........but even then someone could argue that the two players bodies may have different tolerances to be injured, which could be the driver of the difference.

I can't imagine for a second how any reasonable analysis could be assembled with a decent margin for error to prove or disprove your thoughts either way. It all just has to be tummy rubs..........which for the record I agree with you on.

Ok, I;ll stop now and get back to talking hockey

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

But I can record the times that star players were hurt when they had a goon dressed and infer the rest from there.

I don't want to further distract, but you cannot prove the absence of something. It's a fundamentally flawed exercise from the beginning. You can only prove the existence of something and use a lack of evidence to show that said thing doesn't exist. That's as best as you can do on a subject like this, and that sort of discussion should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.

[Calgary4LIfe]

It is all about game management. Dube playing insignificant minutes on the 4th line didn't help the Flames win, nor did it have any effect whatsoever.


You dress Peluso (and/or Prout), and if the game starts to get chippy, you send him out. Sure, the anti-fighting crowd may point at the win and say: "this was the response". Sure, but McLellan was also about as bright as a rock in a light socket and didn't encourage the physical nonsense. The Flames don't have a lethal PP for the Oilers to worry about, as evidenced by the SHG against and the breakaways.


There is no way that Edmonton isn't going to enter that game and not be looking for retribution. There is no way that they aren't going to sit down and watch some video on what went right, and how the Flames seemed off their game for a period and a half, and figure out that it was due to the physicality of the game itself.


Last thing I want is one of those meatheads to go over the line. Tkachuk was damn lucky that he wasn't hurt. Very damn lucky. Why else did Calgary sign guys like Peluso and Prout if they aren't going to play against a team like Edmonton full of meatheads? Maybe the reffing next game won't be so quick to break up altercations.



If Edmonton looks like they are trying to be over-exuberant in their physicality again, you send out Peluso and Prout and either get them to calm idiots down a notch, or take them off the ice for 5+ minutes. If they won't engage, at least they will send the message that if they target the Flames' skilled players, then they will target Edmonton's skilled players in retribution.



Last thing I want to see is one of those idiots jumping another one of our players and potentially injuring them - could end up being a long-term injury. I thought it was a mistake not dressing Peluso. It also isn't like he is such a terrible player that he hurts the team - in the games he played he has been decent.



There is no reason to allow the Oilers to completely dictate the physical play when the Flames can probably do a better job of it to begin with, and still out-skill that team and end up winning the game. Like it or not, the BOA seems like it is back to how it used to be long ago. I remember that the Flames way back in the day had no chance of beating the Oilers with any consistency. If they won the game, they would take a beating, and it was almost like they were scared. In comes Vernon to make key saves, and in comes Tim Hunter to make everyone more comfortable and kept their goons busy.


The NHL didn't look at the Draisaitl slew-foot. They didn't look at Kassian jumping Tkachuk. They didn't look at Gaudreau getting boarded (neither did the refs, unfortunately). It is up to the Flames to protect themselves. Not dressing more toughness is the Flames not protecting themselves IMO. You can at least keep their meatheads busy, if not deter them completely. That's the little game within the game, and the rest is Backlund smothering McDavid as usual, while the much better depth wins the hockey game on the scoreboard. 3 little games within the game itself.

[Buff]

I wish we still had Engelland. He could be awesome on the 3rd pair and be that deterrent that some people clamor for. Then we wouldn't have to worry about Prout getting into the lineup or whether or not to call up Peluso.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by transplant99

There is absolutely no way you can make that claim and substantiate it.

This is absolutely true. I suppose what you can prove is that there are plenty of instances where you had a goon and a star was still targeted.

You just can't say there are no examples because, for example, Gaudreau didn't get hurt when Peluso was in the lineup (actually he did, but only at the end for the Ducks game with an empty net, when there was no way Peluso was coming out). I actually said in that game it was circumstantial evidence against my usual argument.

[stone hands]

someday i hope this archaic "ice goons for deterrents" narrative goes away

ok lets presume zack kassian concussed tkachuk on that play

a) would dalton prout or anthony peluso sitting on the bench and playing 4 mins the entire game have had any effect on kassians decision to chase tkachuk down in that moment
b) would dalton prout or anthony peluso trying to beat kassian up after he concusses tkachuk do anything except fulfil some machismo desire to get revenge

[Ryan Coke]

I wonder if you asked the players what they would say about having some toughness on the ice the other night. I have a feeling they would’ve liked to have someone there that could drop the gloves with Kassian and Lucic.

If they said they didn’t want it, then I’ll buy it. But I bet they would say yes.

[Robbob]

Part of the problem is there are very few teams, Edmonton being one, that still plays by the "code" for from the 80s. Part of the issue is they are so stuck in that era they have never evolved (fanbase and team hierarchy).

The hit on Gaudreau was probably a little worse than the hit Russel took that made Lucic go crazy on the TB player. I also find it amusing that the media stuck in the 80s were probably okay with when Tikkanen and Linseman did the same thing.

At the end of the day I get it, McDavid is the only thing going for them, but the rage and made up interpretations of events (Backlund grabbed McDavid around the neck and took him to the ice) just reeks of desperation.

[metroneck]

I'll accept the 'Tough guy whispering in someone's ear' theory as a 'think twice' deterrent for certain players like Kessler, Marchand, Tkachuk, Perry, but in the history of hockey, I challenge anyone to show me a situation where a 'deterrent' worked on players like Kassian and Lucic.

Further (even though this may contradict above), once Lucic was put on the line with McD and D, did Backlund, Tkachuk and Bennett lay off?

[GioforPM]

What happens if Peluso or Prout challenges Kassian or Lucic after they go after someone and they get whupped? Because those guys aren't exactly shrinking violets in a scrap. And Prout has been decisioned by Lucic before.

[Red]

Originally Posted by metroneck

I'll accept the 'Tough guy whispering in someone's ear' theory as a 'think twice' deterrent for certain players like Kessler, Marchand, Tkachuk, Perry, but in the history of hockey, I challenge anyone to show me a situation where a 'deterrent' worked on players like Kassian and Lucic.

Further (even though this may contradict above), once Lucic was put on the line with McD and D, did Backlund, Tkachuk and Bennett lay off?

Lay what off? McDavid was mugged only one time. So yes, they did lay off.

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

I wonder if you asked the players what they would say about having some toughness on the ice the other night. I have a feeling they would’ve liked to have someone there that could drop the gloves with Kassian and Lucic.

If they said they didn’t want it, then I’ll buy it. But I bet they would say yes.

Next game they should dress 7 D and have Prout sit most of the game until it's time to step in.

[woob]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Because Dube and his 6 minutes of icetime can't skate up to Kassian and tell him to cool it or he will be answering to a guy in his own weight class.

It was ridiculous that there was no response from the Flames in regards to that attack....or the slewfoot by Draisitel.

Originally Posted by transplant99

Well they didnt win because Tkachuk got attacked and slewfooted.

You want him facing that again because they came from behind and won on Saturday? Good for you.

im thankful Peters and crew wont be so passive.

Did your VCR eat your last copy of Rock 'Em Sock 'Em hockey?

[Red]

This topic has always been polarizing, but here is the thing.

Our top scorer gets sent to the quiet room after a cheap play. Misses a period of play.
He then gets sucker punched and ragdolled by the biggest POS dirt bag on our biggest rival.
Our smallest star gets run head first in to the boards.
Our captain gets dumped by our biggest rival's goon.

And our answer is to take a PP? Or depend on the refs to protect our players?

Yikes. Some plan. We will be lucky to stay healthy at this rate. Good luck winning in the playoffs.

[Galakanokis]

Originally Posted by Red

This topic has always been polarizing, but here is the thing.

Our top scorer gets sent to the quiet room after a cheap play. Misses a period of play.
He then gets sucker punched and ragdolled by the biggest POS dirt bag on our biggest rival.
Our smallest star gets run head first in to the boards.
Our captain gets dumped by our biggest rival's goon.

And our answer is to take a PP? Or depend on the refs to protect our players?

Yikes. Some plan. We will be lucky to stay healthy at this rate. Good luck winning in the playoffs.

Do you really think Tkachuk got ragged dolled? I think he set the whole thing up and knew exactly what was going to happen as soon as the puck was dropped. Tkachuk didn't get jumped, he suckered an idiot into a stupid play.

And yes, every scrum with McDavid on the ice someone went at him, Lucic did nothing to stop that.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by Red

This topic has always been polarizing, but here is the thing.

Our top scorer gets sent to the quiet room after a cheap play. Misses a period of play.
He then gets sucker punched and ragdolled by the biggest POS dirt bag on our biggest rival.
Our smallest star gets run head first in to the boards.
Our captain gets dumped by our biggest rival's goon.

And our answer is to take a PP? Or depend on the refs to protect our players?

Yikes. Some plan. We will be lucky to stay healthy at this rate. Good luck winning in the playoffs.

I agree with you but what were the flames supposed to do about it on saturday?

They didn't ahve the muscle in the lineup to deal with either lucic or kassian, and honestly you don't want Bennett or tkachuk dealing with it by themselves and hamonic couldn't help... THe flames were losing that battle every single time. so you have to flip the script and do something else.

Best option against a team with goons like that is to file a complaint to the league about the slew foot and the hit on johnny and then hope the refs pay better attention the next time.

there really are very few teams who still employ someone who could go toe to toe with lucic.

for next game, sure, put peluso in but I doubt it''ll do much. because kassian and lucic both think way too highly of themselves to fight a true 4th liner in peluso and they won't engage.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

I agree with you but what were the flames supposed to do about it on saturday?

They didn't ahve the muscle in the lineup to deal with either lucic or kassian, and honestly you don't want Bennett or tkachuk dealing with it by themselves and hamonic couldn't help... THe flames were losing that battle every single time. so you have to flip the script and do something else.

Best option against a team with goons like that is to file a complaint to the league about the slew foot and the hit on johnny and then hope the refs pay better attention the next time.

there really are very few teams who still employ someone who could go toe to toe with lucic.

for next game, sure, put peluso in but I doubt it''ll do much. because kassian and lucic both think way too highly of themselves to fight a true 4th liner in peluso and they won't engage.

The last guy that stood up against a much bigger player for a bad hit got his jaw fractured. Bennett fought Nurse, Tkachuk can easily take on another player if needed and has against the Kings. You don't want your better players fighting goons (especially when those goons are better staying on the ice versus not).