Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[Toonage]

Frolik has an empty netter and a goal off Anisimov to show for his total. Absolutely some luck involved there.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Are you actually laughing out loud?

You don't find Frolik's start a little fortunate? That's all I'm saying.

There is Lindholm at 9 goals and Frolik at 7, are they really 2 goals apart in the way they are playing?

I am actually laughing out loud

How fortunate for frolik that he is relied on to be on the ice with the game on the line to score empty net goals. What a fluke!

[Oling_Roachinen]

I think the fact that Bennett is being compared to a player who was a healthy scratch because of his poor production is probably enough said about both of them at this point.

At what point do we stop making excuses for Bennett's poor production though? Another sub 30 point season? If he keeps up his pace and scores under 20 points?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I am actually laughing out loud

How fortunate for frolik that he is relied on to be on the ice with the game on the line to score empty net goals. What a fluke!

You'd be a riot at comedy clubs then with a trigger that loose

Dude I'm not anti-Frolik you made a comparison on value and I just pointed out that his 7 goals have an asterisk or two to start the season.

You disagree?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Frolik has an empty netter and a goal off Anisimov to show for his total. Absolutely some luck involved there.

2 ENGs, FWIW.

[Ped]

Take those goals away and he still has twice as many as Bennett.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You'd be a riot at comedy clubs then with a trigger that loose

Dude I'm not anti-Frolik you made a comparison on value and I just pointed out that his 7 goals have an asterisk or two to start the season.

You disagree?

Nah, you said you thought Bennett was better than frolik and I pointed out the guy with 7 goals 3rd on the team is better than the guy with 2 goals tenth on the team tied with Hathaway and hamonic.

Frolik is better than Bennett which is why frolik is out there in situations where he can score empty netters.

Gaudreau
Takchuk
Lindholm
Monahan
Backlund
Frolik
Neal
Ryan
Dube

That's my list if players on the roster better than Bennett imo.

If you're saying he is the 6th or 7th best guy he's ahead of one or both of frolik and Neal which I a think is just demonstrably untrue. Bennett has the experience edge on dube so I will listen to arguments to the contrary but he has nearly about 250 extra NHL games of experience so that might be a poor comparison for Bennett.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Nah, you said you thought Bennett was better than frolik and I pointed out the guy with 7 goals 3rd on the team is better than the guy with 2 goals tenth on the team tied with Hathaway and hamonic.

Frolik is better than Bennett which is why frolik is out there in situations where he can score empty netters.

Gaudreau
Takchuk
Lindholm
Monahan
Backlund
Frolik
Neal
Ryan
Dube

That's my list if players on the roster better than Bennett imo.

If you're saying he is the 6th or 7th best guy he's ahead of one or both of frolik and Neal which I a think is just demonstrably untrue. Bennett has the experience edge on dube so I will listen to arguments to the contrary but he has nearly about 250 extra NHL games of experience so that might be a poor comparison for Bennett.

Well by saying 6th or 7th I certainly wasn't hoping to start a Frolik vs Bennett debate on goal production.

I see Frolik and his contract more likely to be moved which changes his slotting for me, ... but that's just my opinion.

I'm happy to call him 8th if this whole thing would go away, as it doesn't change my original point one iota ... which was you don't need to be in a hurry to trade your 6-8th best forward.

[Phil Russell]

Sam Bennett is the most over discussed topic on this board. He's a good third-fourth liner who adds grit to an otherwise pretty gritless team. He plays with jam and is getting opportunities. If that's all he ever ends up being, then so be it. Trading him now will not get you anything more than what you would get for a third-fourth liner, and no one would be happy to take that, because he might still have potential to be something more. That potential is getting less likely, sure, but what's the other option? Trade him anyway because you are pissed about his draft pedigree? Keep whining about how Sam sucks, when he doesn't. He's not what we hoped he would be but just enjoy the fact that he is one of the Flame's more consistently passionate players. Find it in yourself to like Sam because if he wasn't drafted fourth overall he would probably be the fan favorite.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well by saying 6th or 7th I certainly wasn't hoping to start a Frolik vs Bennett debate on goal production.

I see Frolik and his contract more likely to be moved which changes his slotting for me, ... but that's just my opinion.

I'm happy to call him 8th if this whole thing would go away, as it doesn't change my original point one iota ... which was you don't need to be in a hurry to trade your 6-8th best forward.

If you're going to state that Bennett is better than Frolik then why are you surprised there is a debate about it? Other people obviously don't share that opinion.


The fact that there is even a debate about it is the problem. Frolik is a career 3rd line guy who's past his prime. He hasn't hit the 20 goals mark in 9 seasons which were his first 2 seasons in the league. He's never scored more than 45 points in a season and he's declining.


And there's still an argument to be made that he's better than Bennett.


If people are willing are willing to accept that Bennett will probably never be more than he is, then ok that's fine.


But there are still people waiting for him to break out. No one is as "unlucky" as Bennett for the third straight season now.


Someone on here the other day called him the next Doug Gilmour. Gilmour, who never scored less than 50 points until the lockout. I realize that opinion is in the minority, but there's always going to be a group of people who keep waiting for him to break out. It's becoming increasingly unlikely.


Paul Byron comparison? Byron has exceeded expectations and still hasn't hit 45 points. He might this year, but he probably won;t.



He had a 4 goal game. So what? Alex Zhamnov had a 5 goal game and still only scored 30 in a season once.


If you're okay with a 25-40 point guy who tries hard but can't score to save his life, fine.


But if people are always going to expect more, eventually that expectation is going to weigh on him.


Rob Niedermayer played over 1150 games and scored almost 500 points and won a Stanley Cup, and he's still considered a disappointment.

[mrdonkey]

Bennett is a hell of a lot closer to Hathaway than Frolik IMO.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Ped

If you're going to state that Bennett is better than Frolik then why are you surprised there is a debate about it? Other people obviously don't share that opinion.

The fact that there is even a debate about it is the problem. Frolik is a career 3rd line guy who's past his prime. He hasn't hit the 20 goals mark in 9 seasons which were his first 2 seasons in the league. He's never scored more than 45 points in a season and he's declining.

And there's still an argument to be made that he's better than Bennett.

If people are willing are willing to accept that Bennett will probably never be more than he is, then ok that's fine.

But there are still people waiting for him to break out. No one is as "unlucky" as Bennett for the third straight season now.

Someone on here the other day called him the next Doug Gilmour. Gilmour, who never scored less than 50 points until the lockout. I realize that opinion is in the minority, but there's always going to be a group of people who keep waiting for him to break out. It's becoming increasingly unlikely.

Paul Byron comparison? Byron has exceeded expectations and still hasn't hit 45 points. He might this year, but he probably won;t.

He had a 4 goal game. So what? Alex Zhamnov had a 5 goal game and still only scored 30 in a season once.

If you're okay with a 25-40 point guy who tries hard but can't score to save his life, fine.

But if people are always going to expect more, eventually that expectation is going to weigh on him.

Rob Niedermayer played over 1150 games and scored almost 500 points and won a Stanley Cup, and he's still considered a disappointment.

As I said above ...

Never meant to turn this into a Bennett / Frolik thing ... in fact in my opinion I didn't.

I was just saying that you shouldn't be in a hurry to trade a forward that is clearly in your top nine because you're pissed that he's not going to be what you thought you drafted.

That's pretty much it.

I have him 6/7 because I see Frolik and his contract/age as a likely guy to go for cap space reasons, but he's a good player and I don't have any issue with him at all. He makes every line he plays on safer.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Page 93. The guy is visibly playing a better game under the new coach. Still hasn’t returned to year 1 pace offensively. A bit snakebit. Better linemates but not stable. Coach rewarding him somewhat but he hasn’t settled on linemates. Nothing new for some people since page 1. Exhausting.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Bennett is a hell of a lot closer to Hathaway than Frolik IMO.

I think Bennett will no longer be a top line guy, but I also think he's done more than enough to show that he's not a fourth line guy.

He's down to 2nd line upside, third line baseline in my mind.

As to where he sits on some line between Frolik and Hathaway? I'd say he's a lot closer to Frolik at this point.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Still hasn’t returned to year 1 pace offensively. A bit snakebit.

2 goals in 18 games is snakebit?

Saying Bennett is 6th best forward kinda makes it sound like he's a 2nd liner, but I'd say there are many 6th best forwards who happen to be 3rd line centres but not really 3rd line wingers.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by David Struch

2 goals in 18 games is snakebit?

Uh, yeah, that’s what snakebit implies, that number should be higher.

If he had, say, 7 goals in 18 games, he would not be snakebit.

Extra bonus - if you watch the games, you may understand why

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Extra bonus - if you watch the games, you may understand why

I watch the games.

But, geez, that's some pretty hard luck for Sam, 13 goals in 81 games in 2016-17, 11 goals in 82 games in 2017-18, now Bennett only has 2 goals so far in 18 games of the 2018-19 season.

That's an awful long time to be snakebit man.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by David Struch

I watch the games.

But, geez, that's some pretty hard luck for Sam, 13 goals in 81 games in 2016-17, 11 goals in 82 games in 2017-18, now Bennett only has 2 goals so far in 18 games of the 2018-19 season.

That's an awful long time to be snakebit man.

Good. If you watch the games, you saw the disallowed goal, other goals he contributed to but didn’t get points, etc.

I didn’t say he has been snakebit for years. I separate his work in to
Year 1 - good and consistent NHL linemates, good productivity and promise
Year 2, 3 - blender, bad coach, many bad linemates, productivity in line with opportunity
Year 4 - better linemates but still in a blender, visibly playing well, snakebit

I think players benefit from stability and chemistry

[Lanny_McDonald]

The sad reality is that Sam Bennett is more Eric Nystrom than Bob Nystrom, which we hoped he would be at worst. Bennett was drafted to be a scorer and was talked about as pushing Monahan to the number two center role when he was selected. He's fallen a long way, and other team's - well their broadcast teams anyway - have started to notice. That to me is indicative of holding on too long. I was hopeful he would turn his career around this season, but almost at the quarter pole and he's on a tend for a career low everywhere.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by New Era

The sad reality is that Sam Bennett is more Eric Nystrom than Bob Nystrom, which we hoped he would be at worst. Bennett was drafted to be a scorer and was talked about as pushing Monahan to the number two center role when he was selected. He's fallen a long way, and other team's - well their broadcast teams anyway - have started to notice. That to me is indicative of holding on too long. I was hopeful he would turn his career around this season, but almost at the quarter pole and he's on a tend for a career low everywhere.

A fair stance.

And you also can not deny the simple fact that he hasn’t had a set of stable and quality linemates since his rookie, and most productive, season.