[PGT] Flames jobbed by officiating. Lose 3-1 to the Sharks.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Wolfman

That was my reaction.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by UKflames

I see the Bennett haters are back out in force, despite playing well, he misses one penalty shot and you would think the loss was on him reading some of the comments on here.

Good to see Smith have a strong game, hopefully that now becomes the norm and not the exception.

Not sure when we see Neal start to put it together, hopefully he will soon settle in and start looking more like himself.

Such nonsense.

He is on pace for 18 points. Full stop.

Sure he has been physical and has been decent as a PK guy, but beyond that he is (and has for2+ years now) sucked horribly. I mean Stone is on pace to outscore him.....think about that!

Not everything is about points, and i am the first to recognize that, but this guy is getting more icetime than Michael Frolik and is doing almost nothing with it.

Pointing this out does not make people "haters", it makes them realists.

ANY Flames fan wants Bennett to do well but the fact is, he just is not providing anything near what he should be.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Such nonsense.

He is on pace for 18 points. Full stop.

Sure he has been physical and has been decent as a PK guy, but beyond that he is (and has for2+ years now) sucked horribly. I mean Stone is on pace to outscore him.....think about that!

Not everything is about points, and i am the first to recognize that, but this guy is getting more icetime than Michael Frolik and is doing almost nothing with it.

Pointing this out does not make people "haters", it makes them realists.

ANY Flames fan wants Bennett to do well but the fact is, he just is not providing anything near what he should be.

Couldn't disagree more.

Sam Bennett now leads the Flames in individual scoring chances. He has 22 through 17 games this season. The next two guys on the list are Lindholm and Gaudreau who each have 18.

When it comes to scoring chances adjusted to ice time he has 6.75/hour, the top line guys are averaging closer to 4 per hour.

Is he finishing? No
Will he ever be a guy that finishes? Maybe not.

But to say he sucks when he's generating chances is foolish. Clearly Bill Peters sees the same or he wouldn't have moved Bennett from a 7 minute per night fourth liner to a third line staple, and then last night in an effort to tie the game he elevated Bennett to the second line with Backlund and Tkachuk.

Look past the counting stats and ask yourself if you're a coach ... do you like players that generate scoring chances over players that don't?

Should be a pretty easy answer.

[bigrangy]

It's pretty clear to me that Bennett is at worst, the team's 7th best forward. Frolik has had more scoring success so he rounds out my top 6.

The sad part is, the gap between the 7th and 8th best forwards seems huge right now. How on earth did Neal and Ryan produce the way they did earlier in their careers? They offer nothing offensively (and Neal is Brouwer-esque in the d-zone). Janko has been much much better in the last 3 games but he was awful for the first 15 games.

Bennett is getting chances, the chances are not resulting in anything. Either he's got the worst finish in the league or his luck will turn around.

[Resolute 14]

'Chances' are great until you're down 2-1 with the puck on your stick and you do F all with it.

Or, to put it another way, there is no Nobel prize for attempted chemistry.

[transplant99]

OK then.....Bennetts great cause......fancy stats.

Forget about actual production for over 3 years now.....he is generating chances and has only been "unlucky" to not get more.

Again, at some point that just doesn't add up and the narrative simply is not what people suggest.

Does he have value as a player? Of course he does, but it is not unfair to suggest he needs to be better....regardless of any made up/arbitrary stats. He has sucked way more often than he has been good the last 2+ years, even acknowledging his all around game has been much better this 17 game segment thus far.

He will be an RFA with arb. rights at seasons end....he should surely get a raise if he is all that good right?

Do you think that happens?

[GioforPM]

Day after positive thoughts:

The Flames played less than their A game on the second night of a BTB, against a team that most people projected to finish first in the Pacific, and maybe contend for a Cup, and were still within a few bad calls and a couple missed opportunities, of winning the game.

Smith played great, and that is a good good sign.

Hamonic continues to play well.

Stone got in and didn't show too much rust. Hathaway is still making the most of his time in the lineup.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Couldn't disagree more.



Sam Bennett now leads the Flames in individual scoring chances. He has 22 through 17 games this season. The next two guys on the list are Lindholm and Gaudreau who each have 18.



When it comes to scoring chances adjusted to ice time he has 6.75/hour, the top line guys are averaging closer to 4 per hour.



Is he finishing? No

Will he ever be a guy that finishes? Maybe not.



But to say he sucks when he's generating chances is foolish. Clearly Bill Peters sees the same or he wouldn't have moved Bennett from a 7 minute per night fourth liner to a third line staple, and then last night in an effort to tie the game he elevated Bennett to the second line with Backlund and Tkachuk.



Look past the counting stats and ask yourself if you're a coach ... do you like players that generate scoring chances over players that don't?



Should be a pretty easy answer.

This is where I have a problem with all the advanced statistics. You can manipulate data to support any argument. Remember when Ty Conklin was better than Brodeur because he had better advanced statistics? At the end of the day Bennett has not provided any meaningful offense for the team. Hits and fights are nice and all but goals and assists would be a hell of a lot nicer.

[flambers]

Flames looked like a team that lacked energy, not a great game...

[jonkaupp]

I never said Bennett sucked. He is what he is. But for the one poster to suggest that he should be in the top 6 over Backlund is asinine.

Bennet is a bottom six player who has a good physical element to his game. He can get all these scoring chances he wants, which is a highly subjective stat by the way, but until he actually starts producing on them then he can’t be counted on for anything more. And it’s not like his possession numbers are that fantastic. They’re ok.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

'Chances' are great until you're down 2-1 with the puck on your stick and you do F all with it.

Or, to put it another way, there is no Nobel prize for attempted chemistry.

Clearly Peters agrees with me or he wouldn't have been out there.

If you need a tying goal you put the six forwards together with the best chance of generating the chances you need to score.

Everyone wishes Bennett would score more goals, show more finish, but a guy with jam that hustles on every shift, never gives up on a play and is showing high counts in scoring chances by an independent counting source helps in that way.

His breakaway last night gave up a rebound that Backlund should have finished. That's a good example of a player creating a chance and another player finishing it.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

This is where I have a problem with all the advanced statistics. You can manipulate data to support any argument. Remember when Ty Conklin was better than Brodeur because he had better advanced statistics? At the end of the day Bennett has not provided any meaningful offense for the team. Hits and fights are nice and all but goals and assists would be a hell of a lot nicer.

I like advanced stats as a supportive evidence, but not as crux of the argument as to whether something is actually happening. Much of it is subjective, particularly the stats that Bingo is using to support Bennett, and therefore needs to be judged with that in mind. Bennett’s possession numbers aren’t that great. His scoring numbers are abysmal. His highly subjective ‘scoring chances’ are good as well as his eye test physicality.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by transplant99

OK then.....Bennetts great cause......fancy stats.

Forget about actual production for over 3 years now.....he is generating chances and has only been "unlucky" to not get more.

Again, at some point that just doesn't add up and the narrative simply is not what people suggest.

Does he have value as a player? Of course he does, but it is not unfair to suggest he needs to be better....regardless of any made up/arbitrary stats. He has sucked way more often than he has been good the last 2+ years, even acknowledging his all around game has been much better this 17 game segment thus far.

He will be an RFA with arb. rights at seasons end....he should surely get a raise if he is all that good right?

Do you think that happens?

Well you can be as pissy as you want about it, you're not going to sway the facts.

He's an unproductive player.
He's a player that creates a lot of chances.

NHL teams don't have 11 or 12 highly offensive players lying around ready to make lines. Good teams have three or four, and then it falls off. When you go and build lines do you then add guys that create nothing to fill it out, or do you add guys with jam that have shown to create lots of chances.

That's who he is right now, and I haven't said otherwise.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

This is where I have a problem with all the advanced statistics. You can manipulate data to support any argument. Remember when Ty Conklin was better than Brodeur because he had better advanced statistics? At the end of the day Bennett has not provided any meaningful offense for the team. Hits and fights are nice and all but goals and assists would be a hell of a lot nicer.

What data were manipulated?

I'm dying to know.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

I like advanced stats as a supportive evidence, but not as crux of the argument as to whether something is actually happening. Much of it is subjective, particularly the stats that Bingo is using to support Bennett, and therefore needs to be judged with that in mind. Bennett’s possession numbers aren’t that great. His scoring numbers are abysmal. His highly subjective ‘scoring chances’ are good as well as his eye test physicality.

What is subjective?

A non-fan is counting events for every team in the NHL. To ignore that is subjective.

Counting stats are objective.

[calumniate]

James Neal was super frustrating last night. Got zero pucks deep, was responsible for the first goal, and was getting in his teammates way (aka not playing his position). Jankowski stepped in pretty well. Wouldn't be surprised if Neal gets scratched

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What is subjective?

A non-fan is counting events for every team in the NHL. To ignore that is subjective.

Counting stats are objective.

Scoring chances are absolutely subjective, Jesus. They’re based on whether the person counting them considers something a scoring chance, doesn’t at all matter if it is third party. That’s what subjective means, if something is of someone’s opinion. An objective stat is a goal. There is no arguing whether something is a goal. There is nothing objective about ‘scoring chances’.

And I am not at all saying that Bennett isn’t producing them. He’s been ok. I’m saying in the end it doesn’t really matter and until he starts finishing then he doesn’t belong in the top 6, which is what I was originally responding to. The idea that Backlund is just a checker and Bennett should be in the top 6.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What is subjective?

A non-fan is counting events for every team in the NHL. To ignore that is subjective.

Counting stats are objective.

Seriously?

What you or I determine as a scoring chance can vary greatly, so why would it be some sort of streamlined process from rink to rink?

It's ALL subjective and open to interpretation.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well you can be as pissy as you want about it, you're not going to sway the facts.

He's an unproductive player.
He's a player that creates a lot of chances.

NHL teams don't have 11 or 12 highly offensive players lying around ready to make lines. Good teams have three or four, and then it falls off. When you go and build lines do you then add guys that create nothing to fill it out, or do you add guys with jam that have shown to create lots of chances.

That's who he is right now, and I haven't said otherwise.

So now anyone who disagrees with you is "pissy"?

Allrighty then.

I would still like to know if you think Bennett gets a raise after this year based on what he have seen thus far and assuming it stays somewhat the same.

A quick count I just did and may be off a few either way.

113 players in the NHL have more points than Bennett....and make less money.

[ResAlien]

If you’re generating chances and doing nothing with them that makes you good? Weird argument but ok sure. I mean he’s on pace for 18 points. 18. Solid 4th line contributor and maybe if he keep plugging away he can do something with those team leading individual scoring chances and 4 points. I don’t think it’s “hating” to point out the low totals. He’s a good grinder though, teams need that bottom 6 grit and energy.