2018/2019 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Diane Phagoof

I honestly think the flames need a center more than a Goalie. I like Rittich, I think he and Smith can share the net and go with whoever catches fire.

I'll say it again, the flames are not going anywhere with:

Monahan
Backlund
Jankowski

Not to say there is anything wrong with these players, I like them all, but lets do a little rearranging.

Monahan
Duchene
Backlund

...There we go. That's a group up the middle I see going places. Not saying it has to be Duchene but we need a more offensively minded center to play with Tkachuk.

Monahan and Duchene on the same team would be a disaster. Neither is above average defensively so you would have about 38 ES minutes every game where your top six is essentially getting their face kicked in. We've seen that story, too, it was called the 2016-17 Colorado Avalanche. MacKinnon-Duchene-Soderberg, they thought they were deep down the middle, too.



You can have one defensively suspect center (Carter, Monahan, Kuznetsov), but not two.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Let's not misconstrue Diane Phagoof's argument. The reply was clearly in response to Cup-Winning Toews at which it was argued that the Flames had just as good of center depth today as the 2015 winning Blackhawks.

He wasn't talking about today.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Well that is like me saying I would take Gretzky in his prime over Toews every time. Not sure what that has to do with today.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

But: Two years ago Nashville made the finals with a top 9 C lineup of Johansen, Fisher, Wilson. And they had great D, Rinne, and some really good wingers. Chicago's last cup came with Toews, Richards (who wasn't very good offensively) and Marcus Kruger/Vermette. They got really good goaltending out of all three guys who played, plus of course they had Kane, Hossa, Saad, Keith and Sharp. And Teravainen came on in the POs. Calgary's C depth is as good as those two.

Dude, he was talking about 2015 Chicago Blackhawks vs 2018 Calgary Flames in direct reply to an argument that the Flames had the same center depth.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Let's not misconstrue Diane Phagoof's argument. The reply was clearly in response to Cup-Winning Toews at which it was argued that the Flames had just as good of center depth today as the 2015 winning Blackhawks.

He wasn't talking about today.

Which is more redundant than just sticking to today. Why prefer something you simply cannot have. Unless you have a time machine. Man, it'd be cool to have one of those.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Which is more redundant than just sticking to today. Why prefer something you simply cannot have.

Because that's the argument! Read the posts.

Someone posted that the Flames in 2018 had the same center strength as the 2015 Blackhawks when they won the Cup. He disagreed because 2015 Toews was a beast. That's that. You made up all the other stuff.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Diane Phagoof

And only 2 of them are good.

Jankowski has not looked good.
Ryan has not looked good.

The only person on the second line that's producing is Tkachuk, that needs to change.

I think Backlund is/does his best work on the thirdline as an elite shutdown guy who chips in 20/20.

Something like Stone, Czarnik, 1st for Duchene

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Duchene-Neal
Bennett-Backlund-Frolik
Dube-Jankowski-Ryan

Giordano-Brodie
Hanifin-Hamonic
Valimaki-Andersson

Rittich
Smith


That's a scary team.

Backs is on pace for 54 points... that’s 2nd line scoring numbers for a lot of teams; the vast majority, not sure what more you could ask for from Backlund and honestly if you put a guy like Neal on the right side of those two you could see them all push 60 points IMO. As nice as it would be to add a Nylander or Duchene the more time moves forward the more I realize the need for top goaltending to really push this team over the top.

[flamesforcup]

I think people are kidding themselves if they dont think our centre core is not a weakness.
Monahan
Backlund
Jankowski
Is not a cup winning centre core. I know this website can be an echo chamber but people need to look at centre cores of other teams.

Luckily for the Flames We are strong on defense and wings to make up for it so its that THAT big of an issue right now but it is an obvious weakness. Luckily we have Lindholm who we can maybe use as a centre to bolster that group however that would cause our Wing depth to be poor.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Let's not misconstrue Diane Phagoof's argument. The reply was clearly in response to Cup-Winning Toews at which it was argued that the Flames had just as good of center depth today as the 2015 winning Blackhawks.

He wasn't talking about today.

Even then, this is such a binary way to view things. If we are talking about centre depth, then it makes no sense to me to talk about the difference between individual players on each team. Even compared to the last Cup winner in Chicago I am not convinced that that centre group—and especially the Toews-Richards combo compared to Monahan-Backlund —is demonstrably better than what the Flames are icing today.

Moreover, while Lindholm is not technically lining up at centre, he certainly counts as a hugely important part of the Flames centre-depth. He takes a tonne of face-offs, covers the middle on the back check, and plays big minutes on the he penalty kill. Even with him slotted on the right wing I would argue that Lindholm is easily one fo the Flames top-three centres.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Because that's the argument! Read the posts.

Someone posted that the Flames in 2018 had the same center strength as the 2015 Blackhawks when they won the Cup. He disagreed because 2015 Toews was a beast. That's that. You made up all the other stuff.

It's not the argument. Read the posts. The post I quoted did not specify at all what year a player was playing versus what year another player was playing. Garbage to call that out and defend goalpost moving. Plain as day the poster asked "You prefer Monahan over Toews? if you are I don't know what to say"

Where exactly did I make anything up specific to what I quoted.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by flamesforcup

I think people are kidding themselves if they dont think our centre core is not a weakness.
Monahan
Backlund
Jankowski
Is not a cup winning centre core. I know this website can be an echo chamber but people need to look at centre cores of other teams.

Luckily for the Flames We are strong on defense and wings to make up for it so its that THAT big of an issue right now but it is an obvious weakness. Luckily we have Lindholm who we can maybe use as a centre to bolster that group however that would cause our Wing depth to be poor.

But the beauty of the Flames situation is that Lindholm does not necessarily have to be one or the other. He slots in on the wing, but the fact that he is a great centre is invaluable to that top line.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by dammage79

It's not the argument. Read the posts. The post I quoted did not specify at all what year a player was player versus what year another player was playing.

Okay, then the bigger issue is that he thinks that Brad "out-of-the-league-for-three-years" Richards and Backlund are comparably players today. Forget the Toews and Monahan discussion.

Or use some common sense and read his post. He was 100% talking about how today's Flames match up with the 2015 Blackhawks because that's what GioforPM was arguing. He's said as much. So don't talk about Gretzky to mock his post.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Okay, then the bigger issue is that he thinks that Brad "out-of-the-league-for-three-years" Richards and Backlund are comparably players today. Forget the Toews and Monahan discussion.

Or use some common sense and read his post. He was 100% talking about how today's Flames match up with the 2015 Blackhawks. He's said as much. So don't talk about Gretzky to mock his post.

Or, figure out with your own eyes who was talking about what. seems like you're digging for a fight or something. And no, he was talking about adding centers and I said we're fine at center, our bigger need is a goalie. I give zero craps about what others were going on about with the post that person made.

And I certainly didn't say anything about gretzky.

[Heavy Jack]

However people are ignoring too the additions of Lindholm and Ryan to offset the strain of weak side draws for the main centers.

Lindy has already taken 201 draws in 15 games (13.4 per game average) that’s a lot of draws he is taking off of the weak side of Monahan literally half of the draws Monahan would otherwise have to take and this cannot be taken with a grain of salt; that’s a big impact.

Lindholm

FOT 201 | FOW 113 | FOL 88 | % 56.2

Monahan

FOT 196 | FOW 101 | FOL 95 | % 51.5

[1qqaaz]

I think the Flames' center depth is basically the same as the Predator's center depth. They seem to be doing fine.

The main difference is that they have way better defense and goaltending.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Or, figure out with your own eyes who was talking about what. seems like you're digging for a fight or something..

GioforPM says that the Flames center depth is as strong as the 2015 Blackhawks. That's the argument.

Diane says that he would have taken Toews over Monahan and that Backlund and Richards are comparable.

When jumped on for his post he immediately clarifies that he was talking about the 2015 team that was being discussed when it becomes apparent people misread his post. People keep jumping on it for no reason even you bring up using a time machine, as though he started the discussion.

If you think that Toews/Richards (2015)> Monahan/Backlund (2018). Cool. If you think Monahan/Backlund(2018)=> Toews/Richards (2015), also cool. But let's be clear that was the argument that someone else brought up and there was no need to jump on the guy for saying that he would have taken Toews over Monahan. And now that the argument has been clarified, there's no reason to continue to dwell on the misconstruing of the argument and bog down this discussion even more because someone said that Other Player>Flames Player.

[Phagoof]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Okay, then the bigger issue is that he thinks that Brad "out-of-the-league-for-three-years" Richards and Backlund are comparably players today. Forget the Toews and Monahan discussion.

Or use some common sense and read his post. He was 100% talking about how today's Flames match up with the 2015 Blackhawks because that's what GioforPM was arguing. He's said as much. So don't talk about Gretzky to mock his post.

Yep. Thanks. We also aren't taking into account the 3rd and 4th line Centers. Ryan looks lost out there and Janko has taken a step back.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Monahan and Duchene on the same team would be a disaster. Neither is above average defensively so you would have about 38 ES minutes every game where your top six is essentially getting their face kicked in. We've seen that story, too, it was called the 2016-17 Colorado Avalanche. MacKinnon-Duchene-Soderberg, they thought they were deep down the middle, too.

You can have one defensively suspect center (Carter, Monahan, Kuznetsov), but not two.

What's wrong with Monahan defensively? He's not Backlund, but hes not Kuznetsov. That's a huge overstatement imo.

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

However people are ignoring too the additions of Lindholm and Ryan to offset the strain of weak side draws for the main centers.

Lindy has already taken 201 draws in 15 games (13.4 per game average) that’s a lot of draws he is taking off of the weak side of Monahan literally half of the draws Monahan would otherwise have to take and this cannot be taken with a grain of salt; that’s a big impact.

Lindholm

FOT 201 | FOW 113 | FOL 88 | % 56.2

Monahan

FOT 196 | FOW 101 | FOL 95 | % 51.5

Your right. I don't think you can break up that line and put Lindholm as the second line C. It's been too dominant.

Duchene isn't my first choice, but the most realistic and cheapest to acquire. It would be amazing to get O'Reilly or Schenn from the struggling Blues, or even better Kopitar from the Kings, but we would be have to give up Bennett and either Vali or Andersson along with the 1st. It would hurt. I'd still do it, because this city needs a cup. Badly.

Also, if the flames win a cup with Monahan,Backlund,Jankowski and Ryan as the centers I will eat my butt hair.

[Heavy Jack]

I’m definitely not saying to split Monahan/Lindy - I’m saying that because Lindholm has been such a source of support for the weaker parts of Monahan’s game as a center that it’s actually helping him become a better center and making it so that our center depth isn’t as desperate as some are making it seem. This team needs goaltending now and and in the short and long term future more so than any other positions; I really don’t see the value in chasing another big ticket center.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by flamesforcup

I think people are kidding themselves if they dont think our centre core is not a weakness.
Monahan
Backlund
Jankowski
Is not a cup winning centre core. I know this website can be an echo chamber but people need to look at centre cores of other teams.

Luckily for the Flames We are strong on defense and wings to make up for it so its that THAT big of an issue right now but it is an obvious weakness. Luckily we have Lindholm who we can maybe use as a centre to bolster that group however that would cause our Wing depth to be poor.

Our center depth seems good to me. So good that we choose to put one of our best centers on the wing in order to optimize our top 6 ice time..............What am I missing in this discussion?

[TheIronMaiden]

People are obsessed with the idea that you can simply find a true number 1 centre, goalie, or defensive in a trade. In truth, the cost of acquisition is astounding, which is why these trades almost never happen. The bottom line is good teams build through the draft.

The EA NHL 2019 logic for team building doesn't work.

[Phagoof]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Our center depth seems good to me. So good that we choose to put one of our best centers on the wing in order to optimize our top 6 ice time..............What am I missing in this discussion?

I'm pretty sure Lindholm played wing 90% in Carolina so I wouldn't exactly call him a center. He's also had great success in Calgary as a wing.