Store kicks out disabled woman driving scooter

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

I'm being a dick because i feel as though small barley-profitable businesses should not be held to the same standards as multi-billion dollar corportations?

ohh the poor, poor disadvantaged small businesses...

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

ohh the poor, poor disadvantaged small businesses...

Why not elaborate?

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

I'm being a dick because i feel as though small barley-profitable businesses should not be held to the same standards as multi-billion dollar corportations?

Yeah, ok.

No one is forcing people to be entrepreneurs. There are other ways that people can make a living. If a "barely-profitable business" is unable to afford the costs of conducting business then why should it be afforded special treatment? It's not like these regulations we're discussing are recent developments.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Why not elaborate?

well, why does it matter how much profit the company makes or if it's a big corporation? why should the small business be exempt from the law?

if they can't afford to legally setup their business, they should not have a business.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

ohh the poor, poor disadvantaged small businesses...

Speaking of ass'holish.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Speaking of ass'holish.

you are just dying to bust me as a hypocrite aren't ya?? lol

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by Reaper

No one is forcing people to be entrepreneurs. There are other ways that people can make a living. If a "barely-profitable business" is unable to afford the costs of conducting business then why should it be afforded special treatment? It's not like these regulations we're discussing are recent developments.

Your missing my point.

I just don't believe every structure needs to be fit for the disabled. As i have said, I just feel your at a loss when you have a disability and the entire world cannot function to your liking nor should "building codes" include every which business. Society does it's best to make life easier, but you cannot expect every building and store you enter to be fit your your needs.

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

well, why does it matter how much profit the company makes or if it's a big corporation? why should the small business be exempt from the law?

if they can't afford to legally setup their business, they should not have a business.

I was challenging the law in practice.

I just don't think it's reasonable to hold small time operations up to the same standards as corportations such as Wal-mart it just is not reasonable. (saftey guidelines aside).

Basically the best example i can come up with was when i was in San Francisco. Lots of small businesses are operated there and when i went on a boat tour of the bay and around Alcatraz island. There was a disabled lady who was confined to a wheelchair and the boat that was taking about 15 of us on the tour said they did not have the facilities to accomodate the wheelchair but the captain gave the family a name of a company which did (which was on the next piere over) and instead of going off in a huff expecting everything to be catered to their needs, they accepted the fact everything on every corner can't cater to them and where very polite in thanking the captain for the information for someone who could.

Basically the moral of the story is, if you can't buy goods from one store, count your losses, move on and find one which can everything can't suit you.

[ericschand]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

.... I just believe there is a big different between a multi-billion dollar corporation such as Wal-Mart and that of an insignificant local operation.



What i was trying to say is, as a disabled person, your not going to have access to everywhere, nor should you expect it, nor should the laws require.

...

I'm all for Safeway, Wal-mart and other big corporations to have measures in place to accomodate the disabled, but when it boils right down to some avarage joe who operates one store in [/i]one[/i] location, i feel these types of businesses should be exempt from these "guidelines" simply for the fact every location should not be expected to accomodate disabilities.

I'm not trying to be a dick, i just feel your at a loss when you have a disability and the entire world cannot function to your liking nor should "building codes" include every which business.

Careful. Check out Ontario here (I can't seem to find Alberta): http://www.ohrc.on.ca/english/consul...ng-out_2.shtml

According to them, there is no difference between small or large
stores. All must be accessible, or on the way to do so. Note that
it is a Human Rights complaint which can be lodged.
Looks like the GoC, court system, and our Constitution are against
you.

I too thought there was an exclusion for small business, but I stand
corrected.

ers

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

you are just dying to bust me as a hypocrite aren't ya??

Not at all, you're doing it yourself.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Your missing my point.

I just don't believe every structure needs to be fit for the disabled. As i have said, I just feel your at a loss when you have a disability and the entire world cannot function to your liking nor should "building codes" include every which business. Society does it's best to make life easier, but you cannot expect every building and store you enter to be fit your your needs.

So, basically you're saying "we've done enough to try and accomodate people with disabilities so they should just accept that we, as a society, don't care if they feel left behind, marginalized or disallowed their dignity." Yeah, they should just suck it up, eh?

[ericschand]

I just walked by Island Foods during my lunch hour.

The store is smallish, but not that small compared to other stores around
him. His aisles are very small though, there is no way for any assistance
device to fit through. A larger individual may have issues in a couple of his
aisles, plus getting to the cash register would be a chore, it's like a maze.

There is no way any disabled person requiring a wheelchair (or scooter)
would be able to navigate his store. This is judging by the size of some
bikes at a bike shop across the way (with carrier or carts attached).

If he indeed did ask her if he could help, she should have known she
required it in his store.

If the link I posted above, relevant to Ontario, is used to judge his
store, he needs to redesign it.

ers

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

That was my opinion, since this is a free country i believe i should be entitled to build my store how i want it - with exception to saftey codes aside. I just believe there is a big different between a multi-billion dollar corporation such as Wal-Mart and that of an insignificant local operation.

Couldn't disagree more. The building code isn't just "safety codes". In some ways it gives pratically to buildings. If store owners wanted to build however they wanted, buildings would be terrible. Things like exits, bathrooms, stairs would small as possible to allow more space for leasing. You have to have guide lines for these things otherwise buildings won't work. What Wal-Mart and the Joe-Smoes store have in common is that both buildings that are open to the public. I don't see why bank account size should change this.

What i was trying to say is, as a disabled person, your not going to have access to everywhere, nor should you expect it, nor should the laws require.

Municipal, Provincial and Federal property should all accomodate to you for sure for tax reasons and because you are a citizen of the country. But when it comes to privately owned small businesses, you simply cannot expect all of these places to be accessible to the disabled. Lots of things factor in, money, square footage and right down to which disabilities. (As someone has pointed out, with the visually impared argument)

Why not? I have yet to see a resonable argument for why this is not feasable for a store owner. You have to design a building with a fire exit why can't you design a building with a wider corrider or a larger bathroom. This hardly effects cost as it is a given in the design stage.

I'm all for Safeway, Wal-mart and other big corporations to have measures in place to accomodate the disabled, but when it boils right down to some avarage joe who operates one store in [/i]one[/i] location, i feel these types of businesses should be exempt from these "guidelines" simply for the fact every location should not be expected to accomodate disabilities.

I'm not trying to be a dick, i just feel your at a loss when you have a disability and the entire world cannot function to your liking nor should "building codes" include every which business.

Wow, what have you got against people with disabilities? Did someone in a wheel chair run over your foot once? Could you imagine if you couldn't go into half the stores because average joe store owner is too much of a tight-wad to put in barrier free measures? That would be horrible. First you are limiting your own business. Second how do you deciede which business gets to have wheel chair access and which don't? It is much easier and it makes so much more sense to have them all cover it.

We live in a progressive society, we are trying move forward. Why on earth would you want to segregate a group of people because a shop owner wants "his" building a certain way.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by ericschand

I just walked by Island Foods during my lunch hour.

The store is smallish, but not that small compared to other stores around
him. His aisles are very small though, there is no way for any assistance
device to fit through. A larger individual may have issues in a couple of his
aisles, plus getting to the cash register would be a chore, it's like a maze.

There is no way any disabled person requiring a wheelchair (or scooter)
would be able to navigate his store. This is judging by the size of some
bikes at a bike shop across the way (with carrier or carts attached).

If he indeed did ask her if he could help, she should have known she
required it in his store.

If the link I posted above, relevant to Ontario, is used to judge his
store, he needs to redesign it.

ers

But I think that in a small store, because of the neccesities of space, there should be reasonable acceptance that the owner or workers will help you out with getting items and that it's wrong to force them to make their stores accessible by reducing their floor space when they don't have much to begin with and floor space is their lifeblood of survival by squeezing as much merchandise as they can in what retail space they can afford.

I mean I can even think of dozens and dozens of stores in the big malls like Market, Chinook, Sunridge, etc. that are not wheelchair or scooter accessible.

What's next? Lop off all the shelves because people can't reach the higher ones? Even normal people ask for assistance when they can't reach something on a high shelf or hanger or can't reach part of the store.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Basically the best example i can come up with was when i was in San Francisco. Lots of small businesses are operated there and when i went on a boat tour of the bay and around Alcatraz island. There was a disabled lady who was confined to a wheelchair and the boat that was taking about 15 of us on the tour said they did not have the facilities to accomodate the wheelchair but the captain gave the family a name of a company which did (which was on the next piere over) and instead of going off in a huff expecting everything to be catered to their needs, they accepted the fact everything on every corner can't cater to them and where very polite in thanking the captain for the information for someone who could.

Basically the moral of the story is, if you can't buy goods from one store, count your losses, move on and find one which can everything can't suit you.

you're now comparing a what, 100 year old prison, to a newer food store? of course alcatraz tour wouldnt be totally accessible.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Couldn't disagree more. The building code isn't just "safety codes". In some ways it gives pratically to buildings. If store owners wanted to build however they wanted, buildings would be terrible. Things like exits, bathrooms, stairs would small as possible to allow more space for leasing. You have to have guide lines for these things otherwise buildings won't work. What Wal-Mart and the Joe-Smoes store have in common is that both buildings that are open to the public. I don't see why bank account size should change this.
Why not? I have yet to see a resonable argument for why this is not feasable for a store owner. You have to design a building with a fire exit why can't you design a building with a wider corrider or a larger bathroom. This hardly effects cost as it is a given in the design stage.

Wow, what have you got against people with disabilities? Did someone in a wheel chair run over your foot once? Could you imagine if you couldn't go into half the stores because average joe store owner is too much of a tight-wad to put in barrier free measures? That would be horrible. First you are limiting your own business. Second how do you deciede which business gets to have wheel chair access and which don't? It is much easier and it makes so much more sense to have them all cover it.

We live in a progressive society, we are trying move forward. Why on earth would you want to segregate a group of people because a shop owner wants "his" building a certain way.

I think i'm going to bow out of this arguement and let you take over, you are making some good points

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

But I think that in a small store, because of the neccesities of space, there should be reasonable acceptance that the owner or workers will help you out with getting items and that it's wrong to force them to make their stores accessible by reducing their floor space when they don't have much to begin with and floor space is their lifeblood of survival by squeezing as much merchandise as they can in what retail space they can afford.

I mean I can even think of dozens and dozens of stores in the big malls like Market, Chinook, Sunridge, etc. that are not wheelchair or scooter accessible.

What's next? Lop off all the shelves because people can't reach the higher ones? Even normal people ask for assistance when they can't reach something on a high shelf or hanger or can't reach part of the store.

So, they should wait outside while the shop owner (who may have other customers that also require his/her attention) retrieves shopping items from a list? Should they not be afforded the opportunity to actually view the merchandise in the store? Should they just guess as to what the contents are? I think it would make more sense for them to be able to browse just as every other person is afforded the opportunity to do so.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Flame On

Learn to read. There's not one person here who has suggested removing someone because they're in a wheel chair.
If I'm a shop owner and someone is being rude and aggressive and knocking things over and damaging goods I want the right to kick that person out, who ever they are on the planet. We don't know that even happened, so the shop keeper could well still be in the wrong. I'm just saying in theory there are circumstances underwhich anyone could behave in an order to warrent removeal.

YOU learn to read. First sentence in the article.

Afflicted with muscular dystrophy, a woman is fuming a Calgary store owner ordered her to leave his shop because she was in a motorized scooter.

I never said anything regarding a scooter/wheelchair user causing damage or being rude and kicking them out. I said you can't compare kicking some out of your business because they are drunk/underage and refusing service for someone in a wheelchair. I really don't know where your getting this from.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

I think i'm going to bow out of this arguement and let you take over, you are making some good points

Haha. You should stay. If it were up to some of the people in this thread they probably wouldn't let you post because you wouldn't be able to get inside to use your computer.

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by Reaper

So, basically you're saying "we've done enough to try and accomodate people with disabilities so they should just accept that we, as a society, don't care if they feel left behind, marginalized or disallowed their dignity." Yeah, they should just suck it up, eh?

What i'm saying is every place cannot accomodate, no.

If 6 places out of 10 do, then thats a win, you should not expect 10/10.

Originally Posted by Burninator

Couldn't disagree more. The building code isn't just "safety codes". In some ways it gives pratically to buildings. If store owners wanted to build however they wanted, buildings would be terrible. Things like exits, bathrooms, stairs would small as possible to allow more space for leasing. You have to have guide lines for these things otherwise buildings won't work. What Wal-Mart and the Joe-Smoes store have in common is that both buildings that are open to the public. I don't see why bank account size should change this.

I think exits fall under Saftey

Forget i even brought up the profitability of small businesses, this was not the focal point of my argument.

I just feel as though a private business should be able to conduct things how they want to, with exception to saftey guidlines because this is a given. Larger corporations which are publically owned through shares etc have more of an obligation to cater to everyone than a private business which is familly owned.

Originally Posted by Burninator

Why not? I have yet to see a resonable argument for why this is not feasable for a store owner. You have to design a building with a fire exit why can't you design a building with a wider corrider or a larger bathroom. This hardly effects cost as it is a given in the design stage.

Your talking in the sense that all businesses that open are opened from square one. I think the majority of those open are done so in already build property. Some cannot afford a ton of square footage so they have to deal with what they have, hence not being able to make the aisles as wide as they would have liked due to not being enough room for all of their products. As an avarage "Joe" i feel as though i have an obligation to provide my customers with saftey (hence following the Saftey Guidelines) but when it comes right down to the nitty gritty, if there isn't room for your wheel-chair, sorry, move along to the next store. I just don't think it's reasonable for cater to all special needs in every store.

As for wider aisles and bigger bathrooms not affecting the cost of building, i wouldn't be so sure. Square footage in this city is a pricey business and you may brush off a double sized bathroom and wider aisles in lets say a 10 aisle store as not affecting the cost but it certainly does.

Originally Posted by Burninator

Could you imagine if you couldn't go into half the stores because average joe store owner is too much of a tight-wad to put in barrier free measures? That would be horrible.

Live with it.

You have a disability, we will do our best to accomodate you with laws/regulations within reason but going completely all out just dosen't make sense.

How about someoen replys to this:

I just don't think it's reasonable to hold small time operations up to the same standards as corportations such as Wal-mart it just is not reasonable. (saftey guidelines aside).

Basically the best example i can come up with was when i was in San Francisco. Lots of small businesses are operated there and when i went on a boat tour of the bay and around Alcatraz island. There was a disabled lady who was confined to a wheelchair and the boat that was taking about 15 of us on the tour said they did not have the facilities to accomodate the wheelchair but the captain gave the family a name of a company which did (which was on the next piere over) and instead of going off in a huff expecting everything to be catered to their needs, they accepted the fact everything on every corner can't cater to them and where very polite in thanking the captain for the information for someone who could.

Basically the moral of the story is, if you can't buy goods from one store, count your losses, move on and find one which can everything can't suit you.

This is basically how i feel, i have nothing against disabled people, and you can probably see me helping the odd old lady accross the street, i just feel it's not reasonable to expect these tough guidelines on everything.

What i find ridiculous is people are insinuating i'm a bad person because i have a little reason, dropping the hint i hate old ladies and scuff at disabled people.

[ericschand]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

But I think that in a small store, because of the neccesities of space, there should be reasonable acceptance that the owner or workers will help you out with getting items and that it's wrong to force them to make their stores accessible by reducing their floor space when they don't have much to begin with and floor space is their lifeblood of survival by squeezing as much merchandise as they can in what retail space they can afford.

I mean I can even think of dozens and dozens of stores in the big malls like Market, Chinook, Sunridge, etc. that are not wheelchair or scooter accessible.

What's next? Lop off all the shelves because people can't reach the higher ones? Even normal people ask for assistance when they can't reach something on a high shelf or hanger or can't reach part of the store.

According to Ontario, you must make your store accessible. Backed
up by the Constitution, government, and the courts (incl. SCoC).

I realize the small store has lower profit, however, how can you
argue with the law? Get it changed. Until then stores must comply.

And I ask the same question as Reaper, why should wheelchair bound
people be expected to wait outside? Do you not see that as demeaning?

As for some of the clothing shops in SouthCentre, I have seen them
accomodate a wheelchair person, by moving display racks to help
them inside, and those things can't be light. Once inside, I see no
harm in helping them retrieve items. This is where the lady in question
is in the wrong.

ers