Poor defensive play of Gaudreau-Monahan line holding Flames back

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Brick

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada View Post
Yes but I feel Backlund at the same time keeps Tkachuk from reaching his offensive potential. Frolik and Baclund could still be effective with another winger.



Neither does Keith Tkachuk. He says that Matthew is very lucky to be playing with Michael Backlund.

Exactly Brick.

Matthew also said between periods last game that he considers Backlund to be the most underrated center in the game.

[calgaryfox]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Monahan is the real culprit on this line. He's often slow on the backcheck,

.....and I've seen milk turn faster.

[442scotty]

Monahan started hot this year with 4 quick goals then hit a few posts then started to disappear. I wonder if he’s injured. He seems way off right now compared to his start this year

[Coach]

I think each player has some pros and cons defensively.

Johnny is elite on the backcheck, but can blow the zone early and turn the puck over trying to make plays.

Monahan generally has great positioning and is strong in battles, but can float when he’s tired and doesn’t have the top end speed to be a strong backchecker.

Honestly from what I’ve seen to start the season, the only thing that bugs me is Monahan floating habit. I can live with Johnnys mishaps as they are usually in pursuit of a chance and he busts ass back.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Does anyone know if swapping Monahan and Backlund has ever been tried, and to what effect?

We have been very tied to certain pairings, but on paper the defensive balance is way off, and offensive made a priority.

I'm willing to bet the offensive production wouldn't suffer that much, but the defensive would settle right down.

Backlund doesn't have nearly the shot that Monahan does, especially on a bang-bang play. I think he'd be a far less effective option offensively paired with Gaudreau.

[kman35ca]

Originally Posted by 442scotty

Monahan started hot this year with 4 quick goals then hit a few posts then started to disappear. I wonder if he’s injured. He seems way off right now compared to his start this year

I do remember, not sure which game it was, but Monahan took a slash I think, honestly not sure if it was even a slash. But I remember him getting off the ice quick. And the announcer saying something like hopefully Monahan’s all right.

And he was back on the ice pretty quick, so never really thought anything about it.

I think it was a slash to the same wrist he had surgery on. Don’t quote me on it. Looking back to preseason and the first few games, he looked a lot better. And I thought his shot looked harder as well. Hopefully he didn’t injure the same wrist. But again, that doesn’t really make up for his sloppy play.


But honestly, I’m starting to worry about issues deeper with this core, than they just need to get the system down, or work harder, etc. I just got a gut feeling, and I know it’s early, that something is off with this core. I have no idea what that could be. But, why are they such a Jekyll and Hyde team...

Hopefully It’s just getting out of bad habits learned under Gulatzan. But if this continues past game 25, I’ll really start to wonder.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Defensive play doesn't have much, if anything, to do with being tough. Year after year NHL players cited Niklas Lidstrom as the toughest opponent to play against. Less tough (and less skilled) European squads routinely beat Canadian teams in international hockey. And that's usually because they've gotten top-to-bottom buy-in from the whole roster to stick to the system and play as hard without the puck as with it.

Datsyuk was a 3rd line center on that team in 02 though. He was 9th in scoring on the team in the regular season, 4th amongst centres behind Federov, Yzerman and Larionov. He was 11th in playoff scoring. Not a huge contributor.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Backlund doesn't have nearly the shot that Monahan does, especially on a bang-bang play. I think he'd be a far less effective option offensively paired with Gaudreau.

But Neal and Lindholm both have that release.

Backlund's offense is rarely on display due to having to carry the entire forward core defensively, but when playing with other defensive stalwarts internationally, he showed some flash.

A Tkachuk - Monahan - Frolik second line would see about half of the defensive zone starts it does now (split with the first line), and I think we would see more from Backlund than you think.

[pepper24]

Top line has 29 points combined in 9 games. Don’t fix what isn’t broken.

[Kasi]

What about pairing Backlund and Monahan? With Bennett and Lindholm we have two guys quite capable of playing center that aren’t right now. But Monahan is a good finisher and Backlund isn’t so put the two together with someone.

Then can do something like Gaudreau and Lindholm on the top line with a third. Maybe Tkachuk but that’s more like 3 play makers with no sniper. Perhaps Neal and keep Tkachuk with Backlund and Monahan. Although not sure if Neal would make that line much better defensively than Monahan. More physical yes but not sure how much defensively it would improve.

Then third line can be centered by Bennett and fourth Jankowski. Ryan could back up one of them.

Idea being that if we’re going to split them up there is no need to keep him as the only center on his line and that Backlund and him could work well together.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Kasi

What about pairing Backlund and Monohan? With Bennett and Lindholm we have two guys quite capable of playing center that aren’t right now. But Monahan is a good finisher and Backlund isn’t so put the two together with someone.

I don't dislike the idea, but this team has generally been very resistant to trying some players on the wing, even if it's a good idea. They never tried Granlund on the wing, they have yet to try Jankowski on the wing, and I suspect it's the same deal with Monahan.

Also, I'm not convinced Lindholm is all that capable of playing center. His metrics suggested some weakness defensively in Carolina and that appears to be carrying over here. His CA/60.Rel is pretty low most years. He's a good PKer, which would suggest he's a good defensive player, but it just doesn't seem to translate at 5 on 5. *shrug*

On the other hand Bennett's an interesting situation. We had a pretty decent line of Gaudreau-Bennett-Frolik in his rookie year, but once Frolik and Backlund became inseparable so too did Gaudreau and Monahan. Whereas Lindholm's struggles have come on the defensive side of things, Bennett's have come on the offensive side as a center as his line in his second year didn't generate very many chances. If you dug deeper it seemed this applied moreso to the Versteeg-Bennett-Brouwer line (40.95 CF/60 & 49.57 CA/60) than the Versteeg-Bennett-Chiasson line (48.29 CF/60 & 33.33 CA/60), and indeed that latter line was pretty effective in the playoffs. But we never did see Bennett at center again outside of a short leash the next season where his shooting percentage killed him.

Personally, I would like to see Bennett back at center, but I'm not so sure about Lindholm. Perhaps a top nine along the lines of:


Tkachuk-Monahan-Czarnik

The idea behind this line is that Monahan gets two very responsible wingers who can still set him up offensively. On paper though, this is a line that would force opponents to match up defensively which is what you want.

Frolik-Backlund-Lindholm

Pure shutdown line. Lindholm's face off skill would also help, presumably.

Gaudreau-Bennett-Neal

A bit more sheltered, but Neal would hopefully start finding some chemistry with Gaudreau. I have confidence that Bennett can handle the defensive side of things here quite a bit better than Monahan due to his skating and defensive poise, and I believe his offense would come, possibly even able to set up Gaudreau and get Johnny past the 30 goal mark he hasn't seen since his rookie year. Another advantage of this line on paper is that you wouldn't be able to take cheap shots on Gaudreau without answering to the two toughest skill players on the team. Anyone remember this from the original Gaudreau-Bennett experiment:

https://giant.gfycat.com/ImperturbableCalmLamprey.webm

?

I do think these above nine players are our nine best players with each of Jankowski, Dube, and Ryan presently just far enough below for it to make a tangible difference. Actually that's a bit of a lie - I think Jankowski's better than Frolik, but this comes right back to "team is hesitant to play Jankowski on the wing". I think Jankowski on the wing, especially on Backlund's line, could tear it up and be a dominant force instead of an inconsistent 4C.

[pepper24]

^^ Top line and 3M are playing well. Gaudreau and Monahan have been one of top pairings the past few seasons. Bennett finally player better, keep him with Neal and on wing longer. He struggled as center.

[really?]

I believe some of the criticism Sean Monahan is receiving is unwarranted. The eye says he is putting forth more effort this year, he is at times the primary body on the forecheck, and he has shown greater urgency through the neutral zone, but it is also fair to say that he has been slow to initiate coverage deep in the defensive zone.

I would argue that Monahan is not lazy or too casual/passive, but rather he is being miscast. He was drafted as a two way, second line player, and perhaps that's where he would excel. The fact that he has put up solid goal numbers with skilled first line players, does not necessarily equate to him being a 1C. He doesn't have the speed or handle to truly thrive in that role and asking him to do this will likely result in more of the same. Having his release on an off wing with two fast, aggresive players would maximize his attributes. I say try the following:

Gaudreau Lindholm Tkachuk
Bennett Backlund Monahan

Each of these lines would have two fast components, and third player with a skill set to play off that speed. This is out of the box thinking, but playing inside the box has produced absolute mediocrity. There would undoubtedly be resistance from Gaudreau and Monahan, but the results over the past three years demand more than just new bodies to fill out lines 3 and 4. I think this article is really suggesting that the present composition of the Flames first line does not produce a dominance that allows for defensive liabilities to be overlooked, and I agree.

As far as I know Sean Monahan has never been deployed as a right wing, which might raise the a legitimate question as to whether he would be able to thrive in such a role, to which I would offer, "if he can't excel as a second line winger, what is he doing centering your first line?"

[Frank MetaMusil]

I still think goaltending is hurting the team the most. Rittich will be the defacto starter if Smith can't get it going.

Calgary needs to hope for a Holtby/Quick/Crawford/Gibson/Vasilievsky type trajectory for Rittich. Gaudreau and Monahan have never had that caliber of goaltending.

[gamesaver]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

I still think goaltending is hurting the team the most. Rittich will be the defacto starter if Smith can't get it going.

Calgary needs to hope for a Holtby/Quick/Crawford/Gibson/Vasilievsky type trajectory for Rittich. Gaudreau and Monahan have never had that caliber of goaltending.

Well If you have watched those last 2 road games, goaltending was the only thing to like there. The lack of fast skating in both games, bad starts, despite Peters addresing that specifically prior the Habs game, horrible giveaways by even some of our veteran defencemen... Those games would have been really ugly with moderate or sub par goaltending. For me, the issue is the weak start which sets the team behind, not always on score sheet, but in momentum. And as it is a repetitive issue, I think it drags the whole team down mentally as the game progresses. Not sure what can be done with that though.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by really?

I believe some of the criticism Sean Monahan is receiving is unwarranted. The eye says he is putting forth more effort this year, he is at times the primary body on the forecheck, and he has shown greater urgency through the neutral zone, but it is also fair to say that he has been slow to initiate coverage deep in the defensive zone.

I would argue that Monahan is not lazy or too casual/passive, but rather he is being miscast. He was drafted as a two way, second line player, and perhaps that's where he would excel. The fact that he has put up solid goal numbers with skilled first line players, does not necessarily equate to him being a 1C. He doesn't have the speed or handle to truly thrive in that role and asking him to do this will likely result in more of the same. Having his release on an off wing with two fast, aggresive players would maximize his attributes. I say try the following:

Gaudreau Lindholm Tkachuk
Bennett Backlund Monahan

Each of these lines would have two fast components, and third player with a skill set to play off that speed. This is out of the box thinking, but playing inside the box has produced absolute mediocrity. There would undoubtedly be resistance from Gaudreau and Monahan, but the results over the past three years demand more than just new bodies to fill out lines 3 and 4. I think this article is really suggesting that the present composition of the Flames first line does not produce a dominance that allows for defensive liabilities to be overlooked, and I agree.

As far as I know Sean Monahan has never been deployed as a right wing, which might raise the a legitimate question as to whether he would be able to thrive in such a role, to which I would offer, "if he can't excel as a second line winger, what is he doing centering your first line?"

Except that Monahan has greatly outplayed lindholm st centre in their careers. You want us to downgrade our centre position on the first line??
This is a terrible and misguided post. The only scenario where Monahan doesn't play 1c for us is if we acquire Seguin or something lol. It's not happening. Bennett at one time was possible, but he has been truly terrible at centre in the show as well.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Top line has 29 points combined in 9 games. Don’t fix what isn’t broken.

And they have also given up 7 even strength goals against, which is the most on that list from page 1.
Your top line has to outscore at even strength, and they aren't.

[GioforPM]

Yeah top line scoring isn't an issue, but you know that they will be up against other teams' top lines when on the road, and it's just not a good matchup right now.

It's not like they can't do it IMO - they just have to commit to it. Skilled and intelligent players can learn to be good defensively. Lindholm and Monahan have shown decent defence before, and Gaudreau can be good at takeaways. Gaudreau needs to come back deeper into the zone, and they all need to win more puck races and battles.

[Bingo]

The more I dig into top lines the more you see the same thing ... fighting to keep their head above water five on five and the powerplay is the frosting.

The only big lines with significant expected positive goal differential through the early part of the season are ...

Columbus top line
Vegas top line
Jersey
Dallas
Boston
Nashville

Tavares line is positive but less than a goal, Matthews line about the same, Carolina's top line about +.50, Tampa lines about the same.

McDavid's line is +.5

Lines that are negative ...

Vancouver's top line
San Jose, Florida, both of Winnipeg's top lines, Malkin, both of Chicago's top lines.

The worst is Philly's top line at -2.7 expected.

Calgary's top line is productive enough, but their defense is dead last as the only line that's scored 6 or more but are still negative.

[really?]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Except that Monahan has greatly outplayed lindholm st centre in their careers. You want us to downgrade our centre position on the first line??
This is a terrible and misguided post. The only scenario where Monahan doesn't play 1c for us is if we acquire Seguin or something lol. It's not happening. Bennett at one time was possible, but he has been truly terrible at centre in the show as well.

Not sure that history will remember Monahan as a better center than Lindholm, but that remains to be seen. Your opinion of Sean Monahan is obviously as a top tier 1c. I don't agree, but your opinion is duly noted and in no way viewed as terrible. Time will tell, my friend.