Poor defensive play of Gaudreau-Monahan line holding Flames back

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

He was part of the 2002 Wings :P

Not a big part then though as it was his rookie season. He didn’t hit his stride until Babcock started coaching them.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

True, not every team has a Kopitar. Or a Crosby, Backstrom, Bergeron, Toews, or Datsyuk. But the last 11 Cup winners all have.

Team defence, including the skilled guys at the top, wins Cups.

Just for the sake of argument:

In their Stanley cup winning years

Backstrom, 2017-18: 48.59 HDCF%, 51.25 SCF%
Crosby, 2016-17: 57.72 , 56.57
Crosby, 2015-16: 54.11, 57.22
Toews, 2014-15: 50.84, 54.44
Kopitar, 2013-14: 62.50, 60.02
Toews, 2012-13: 63.11, 59.05
Kopitar, 2011-12: 58.49, 58.85
Bergeron, 2010-11: 53.98, 54.27
Toews, 2009-10: 60.23, 59.03
Crosby, 2008-09: 50.60, 52.38
Datsyuk, 2007-08: 63.64, 63.45

Monahan, 2017-18: 53.74, 54.15


Now, I'm not about to suggest that Monahan is in the league of those guys, because that'd be stupid. But if we're going to rely on the metrics that you and Kent Wilson are relying on, Monahan was comparable or better last year to five of the last 11 Stanley Cup seasons from the guys you list in terms of relative chances for vs. against. He looks a bit worse in terms of SCA/60, as he's comparable or better than just four (Backsrom 17-18, Crosby 16-17, Bergeron 10-11, Crosby 08-09).

And that was without a consistent right wing. Or a coach with any idea how to coach.

I will, of course, apply the same caveat to my own argument as I routinely do against others when using these numbers: these stats don't well represent how dreadful the Flames were last year at creating actual scoring chances. Or preventing them. And none of this changes the fact that the Flames have failed to show up consistently in several games already this year.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Was Datsyuk that young? I remember the Flames and Oilers running all over him in 2004 and 2006 playoffs where he was a called out as being soft.

Defensive play doesn't have much, if anything, to do with being tough. Year after year NHL players cited Niklas Lidstrom as the toughest opponent to play against. Less tough (and less skilled) European squads routinely beat Canadian teams in international hockey. And that's usually because they've gotten top-to-bottom buy-in from the whole roster to stick to the system and play as hard without the puck as with it.

[Erick Estrada]

I think it’s important for fans to realize we are only nine games into the season and the Flames are notorious slow starters with Monny being one of the bigger offenders in this regard. I’m not defending the slow starts because they annoy me frankly but it’s pretty early to start sewering any players at this time as after all this is the 3rd coaching staff already in the young careers of Monahan and Gaudreau. It’s hard to create great habits and structure when the coaches and systems change every two years.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Not sure it's that easy with such a small sample size on the season, but here are the 37 lines who have scored at least three goals this season together, sorted by descending CF%.Rel

The issue there is that the other lines on the team don't represent a good control group. In other words, the Pettersson line is at the top of that list not because they're better than rivals but because the Canucks' other lines all suck. Meanwhile, the Aho line, which has been tremendous for the Canes, is punished because the rest of the team looks good too. This is less of a problem once things level out after 30 games, but those are tiny even strength minute numbers so weird stuff is gonna happen.

Suffice it to say, though, that it's definitely the case that by season's end the best top lines in the league also tend to be 50%+ possession and GF% lines at even strength. As far as I'm concerned, Marchand/Bergeron/Pastrnak is the measuring stick for everyone else, and their numbers speak for thsemselves.

[Knut]

Put Tkachuk on their wing. Will maintain good Offense while boosting defensive awareness.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Hes

Put Tkachuk on their wing. Will maintain good Offense while boosting defensive awareness.

Strange how two head coaches have been reluctant to try that as a set line.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

It's because Backlund and Tkachuk together have a tendency to absolutely ruin everyone's day. If the Bergeron line is the measuring stick for a first line, the Backlund line is their second-line equivalent. I can understand why no coach wants to break that up.

[Brick]

I would like to see Tkachuk-Backlund-Lindholm on the 1st line as a trial.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Strange how two head coaches have been reluctant to try that as a set line.

Not really. Most coaches theses days believe in offensive line pairs.

Gaudreau and Monahan are one pair, while Backlund and Tkachuk are another.

And given how the latter two are playing right now, you have to seriously question whether the gains of putting Tkachuk up to the top line overcomes the losses you would suffer on the second line as a result.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It's because Backlund and Tkachuk together have a tendency to absolutely ruin everyone's day. If the Bergeron line is the measuring stick for a first line, the Backlund line is their second-line equivalent. I can understand why no coach wants to break that up.

Yes but I feel Backlund at the same time keeps Tkachuk from reaching his offensive potential. Frolik and Baclund could still be effective with another winger.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yes but I feel Backlund at the same time keeps Tkachuk from reaching his offensive potential. Frolik and Baclund could still be effective with another winger.

Probably a direction from above to keep Tkachuk's AAV down for the upcoming contract

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yes but I feel Backlund at the same time keeps Tkachuk from reaching his offensive potential. Frolik and Baclund could still be effective with another winger.

Tkachuk is on pace for 109 points, and you still feel like he's been held back? Thats some high expectations ;)

[Harry Lime]

Does anyone know if swapping Monahan and Backlund has ever been tried, and to what effect?

We have been very tied to certain pairings, but on paper the defensive balance is way off, and offensive made a priority.

I'm willing to bet the offensive production wouldn't suffer that much, but the defensive would settle right down.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yes but I feel Backlund at the same time keeps Tkachuk from reaching his offensive potential. Frolik and Baclund could still be effective with another winger.

So, two things here. First, I don't agree - I think Backlund maybe ends up scoring on a lower percentage of offensive forays than other players you could pair Tkachuk with, but I think the two of them together get more chances, so it evens out. Second, I don't care - the team has offensive firepower and Tkachuk and Backlund are far more valuable in terms of actually winning games doing exactly what they're doing right now.

IMO if you could clone them and play them ~40 minutes a night without fatigue issues you'd win the President's trophy every year.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yes but I feel Backlund at the same time keeps Tkachuk from reaching his offensive potential. Frolik and Baclund could still be effective with another winger.

Matthew Tkachuk certainly doesn't think that.

[Classic_Sniper]

This has been an ongoing thing for years, I honestly don't think the 1st line will ever figure it out defensively. Doesn't mean they're still not incredibly effective. This line still wins this team games single-handedly. They just happen to give up more scoring chances than on average and always seemed to be hemmed in their own zone for long periods of time.

As much as Gaudreau has the tendency to show lethargy to the defensive side of the game, to me, Monahan is the real culprit on this line. He honestly might be better off defending the points rather than down low where he's just nearly as difficult to play against. He's often slow on the backcheck, leaves his man open in the slot, doesn't help break up enough plays, doesn't contribute enough to easy breakouts which is probably why when this line is hemmed in their own zone, it can take entire shifts just to get the puck out. He needs to be more than just a triggerman on this team if this line truly wants to take themselves to the next level.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Does anyone know if swapping Monahan and Backlund has ever been tried, and to what effect?

We have been very tied to certain pairings, but on paper the defensive balance is way off, and offensive made a priority.

I'm willing to bet the offensive production wouldn't suffer that much, but the defensive would settle right down.

It should certainly be tried out. I think Tkachuk would go well with Monahan and Gaudreau on the second line could really improve line matching.

[Brick]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada View Post
Yes but I feel Backlund at the same time keeps Tkachuk from reaching his offensive potential. Frolik and Baclund could still be effective with another winger.

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Matthew Tkachuk certainly doesn't think that.

Neither does Keith Tkachuk. He says that Matthew is very lucky to be playing with Michael Backlund.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Does anyone know if swapping Monahan and Backlund has ever been tried, and to what effect?

We have been very tied to certain pairings, but on paper the defensive balance is way off, and offensive made a priority.

I'm willing to bet the offensive production wouldn't suffer that much, but the defensive would settle right down.

Backlund has centered Gaudreau for about 10 shifts or so in their entire history. Always looks good to me. I believe the problem is just Monahan-Gaudreau and Tkachuk (Frolik)-Backlund have shown to have such great chemistry its hard to get away from.

You know its crazy to me that Monahan looked so bad last night because I honestly thought he had one of his most complete 200 ft games of his career vs. NYR the game before. Some of his defensive plays and reads were so refreshing. That game made me think hmmmmm, maybe Monahan really is maturing into a more complete player.

Hope he gets back to that, it was obvious he was making real effort.