Poor defensive play of Gaudreau-Monahan line holding Flames back - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

CliffFletcher · 10-23-2018, 04:12 PM

The latest Athletic article by Kent Wilson offers some data to back up what's evident to a lot of us watching the game - that Gaudreau and Monahan are poor without the puck.

https://theathletic.com/606253/2018/...g-flames-back/

Quote:

Luckily a high shooting percentage has been floating this crew so far, but it goes without saying that this can’t continue. Not only can the Flames not hope to contend long-term if their top line keeps getting caved in, it’s also a terrible waste of the Backlund line.

Having a forward combination that can play against almost anyone and win the territorial battle is a rare gift. The payoff should be relatively easier minutes for everyone else. In theory, this should lead to better scoring ratios for other lines, particularly trios loaded up with the team’s best offensive talents. To have them fail this spectacularly at it is casting pearls before swine.

This echoes a comment I read in the Hockey News a few weeks ago questioning if dealing Hamilton was enough to address the problem the Flames have with core players who don't play well without the puck.

So while we're busy pointing the finger at Brodie and Smith for the defensive shortcomings of the team, the top line deserves some of the blame. Few teams accomplish much in this league without their top forwards figuring out that they need to bear down as hard defensively as they do when they have the puck on their sticks.

burn_this_city · 10-23-2018, 04:15 PM

They are passive defenders, rarely do you see them truly battle for the puck in our zone. Mostly just try to block the pass and hope to chip it out. Was hoping this season they would be more committed defensively.

Beatle17 · 10-23-2018, 04:15 PM

Now do that for all the top scoring lines in the league. Basically they are paid to score, very few top line players are Anze Kopitar. Maybe if they weren't saddled with the black hole Brodie all night they may not be so bad considering his man is standing alone in front of the net all night.

Bonded · 10-23-2018, 04:17 PM

Trade the bums

H2SO4(aq) · 10-23-2018, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The latest Athletic article by Kent Wilson offers some data to back up what's evident to a lot of us watching the game - that Gaudreau and Monahan are poor without the puck.

https://theathletic.com/606253/2018/...g-flames-back/

This echoes a comment I read in the Hockey News a few weeks ago questioning if dealing Hamilton was enough to address the problem the Flames have with core players who don't play well without the puck.

So while we're busy pointing the finger at Brodie and Smith for the defensive shortcomings of the team, the top line deserves some of the blame. Few teams accomplish much in this league without their top forwards figuring out that they need to bear down as hard defensively as they do when they have the puck on their sticks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Now do that for all the top scoring lines in the league. Basically they are paid to score, very few top line players are Anze Kopitar. Maybe if they weren't saddled with the black hole Brodie all night they may not be so bad considering his man is standing alone in front of the net all night.

Ahh good. Took about as long as expected.

DeluxeMoustache · 10-23-2018, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Ahh good. Took about as long as expected.

Post 3.

Some folks sure do have an obsession.

Psytic · 10-23-2018, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Now do that for all the top scoring lines in the league. Basically they are paid to score, very few top line players are Anze Kopitar. Maybe if they weren't saddled with the black hole Brodie all night they may not be so bad considering his man is standing alone in front of the net all night.

Anybody? Would be interesting to see this.

Beatle17 · 10-23-2018, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Ahh good. Took about as long as expected.

Just looked at all the teams. 2 top lines are what you would consider well above break even, Boston and Colorado. And if you can show anything that says Brodie isn't the worst defender on the Flames please enlighten me.

Cleveland Steam Whistle · 10-23-2018, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Ahh good. Took about as long as expected.

Based on Brodie's play so far this year...........and the past two years, it actually probably took too long.

shadowlord · 10-23-2018, 04:48 PM

I wonder how much of it was GG's coaching though. Last 1.5 seasons, I noticed that JG was really lazy on the backcheck and very quickly gave up if the opposition puck carrier made a turn away from him. But since JG was the leading scorer, GG seemed to let both of them run free and do whatever they wanted.

On Sunday's NYR game, I noticed Johnny actually put his body between two players. Not quite what I'd call "throwing a check", but I thought, who is this guy? I've noticed much better play-without-the-puck from him so far this season.

GranteedEV · 10-23-2018, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psytic

Anybody? Would be interesting to see this.

Not sure it's that easy with such a small sample size on the season, but here are the 37 lines who have scored at least three goals this season together, sorted by descending CF%.Rel:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm have:

11th most time spent together
Tie for 32nd thru 33rd best G +/- (0)
36th best xGF +/- (-1.23)
Tie for 13th thru 21st penalty +/- (0)
35th best corsi +/-

Although being even is probably better than being below even, you can see that most of these lines have positive goal differentials, which is what you expect out of a top line.

Travis Munroe · 10-23-2018, 05:11 PM

I don't put much of any loss on Smith this year. Riddich played very good but also got very lucky last game. There was no way we deserved to win that despite playing better for half the game.

If it continues, I wouldn't be against putting Backlund with Johny and Tkachuk and then Frolik with Lindholm and Mony.

SeanCharles · 10-23-2018, 05:16 PM

The top line will be fine.

Even though we have the Backlund line doesn't always mean we get the most favourable matchups at all times with the top unit. They play against high end players in the league so it's not like other teams 3rd and 4th lines are dominating them.

Adding a guy like Lindholm should improve the defensive side of the line in the long run, even if the results are not quite there as of yet..

If it doesn't improve maybe it becomes time to try Tkachuk on the top line:

Bennett-Lindholm-Neal
Frolik-Backlund-Ryan
Dube-Jankowski-Hath/Czar

EVERLAST · 10-23-2018, 05:17 PM

I actually thought Sean was looking more responsible this year. He still has to make some improvements......Johnny seems faster but there’s no excuse for bad defence.

I wish they could see how a player like Datsuk who led the league and takeaways contributed to his own success greatly by playing a full complete game.

Hopefully Peters works on this with them .

Geeoff · 10-23-2018, 05:18 PM

Didn't they have decent advanced stats last season? I wouldn't expect great defensive play from this line. I think this indicates that they could be generating more offensively TBH, which we know is something they have in them.

FanIn80 · 10-23-2018, 05:29 PM

Yer darn right Johnny and Monny have held the Flames back this year... FROM SUCKING!!!

WOOOOOOGOFLAMESGO!!1!1!oneone!

Flash Walken · 10-23-2018, 05:31 PM

Monahan has the capability to be better defensively but I don't know if he has the capability to be much better. The key component he's lacking is that start and stop speed that all elite 3 zone defenders possess.

I think in some respects the team has to work around that or decide if Monahan is a top line centre with the organization.

The top line with the team is the one with gaudreau, and maybe that means monahan isn't that guy. Which is a crying shame because backlund certainly isn't but maybe he has to be.

Not sure what the solution is.

FanIn80 · 10-23-2018, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Monahan has the capability to be better defensively but I don't know if he has the capability to be much better. The key component he's lacking is that start and stop speed that all elite 3 zone defenders possess.

I think in some respects the team has to work around that or decide if Monahan is a top line centre with the organization.

The top line with the team is the one with gaudreau, and maybe that means monahan isn't that guy. Which is a crying shame because backlund certainly isn't but maybe he has to be.

Not sure what the solution is.

Gaudreau Lindholm (trade Backlund for RW)
Tkachuk Monahan Neal

Flash Walken · 10-23-2018, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Gaudreau Lindholm (trade Backlund for RW)
Tkachuk Monahan Neal

I don't think that looks good enough, watching Lindholm he doesn't look like a centre to me. I'm sure he can play there in a pinch and often is covering the centre position out there with Monahan, but I don't think that's high end enough.

Jeff Lebowski · 10-23-2018, 06:02 PM

Wrong thread