Judge rids courthouse of Christmas tree so as not to offend Non-Christians

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

You claim my statement is bull****. So you believe that if someone has a Christmas tree, then it is more likely that they are Jewish than Christian. I live next to a Christmas tree lot. I have $1,000 that if I go over to the lot and asked the people buying the trees what their religion is more will say Christian than Jewish. Since you are so adamant that my statement is bull****, I take it you will see the $1,000 bet as easy money. Are we on?

So what your saying is that while the majority of customers that buy these tree's are christians, that your tree lot dealer, if he in fact did this survey would also tell you that there are people of other faiths and denominations that buy these tree's also. Then how can it be a religeou symbol?

Please show me anywhere in Christian doctrines or in thier layouts of ceremonies and rights where they talk about the christmas tree as a religeous symbol.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I can't believe I am arguing with people that "CHRISTMAS TREES" which are a central tradition to CHRISTMAS, THE CELEBRATION OF THE BIRTH OF JESUS CHRIST, cannot be taken as a religious symbol. It has CHRIST right in the name. I really have to shake my head sometimes. True, some people buy "holiday trees" and are not Christian, but to say that Christmas trees cannot be construed as relating to a religious holiday is just incredible.

CHRISTMAS is a generally accepted holiday thats been adopted by almost everyone in this country, not as the birth of Christ buy as a family get together. You don't see Muslim's and Jews and others working on that day, but they're not celebrating the birth of Christ. Its an adopted holiday for a large number of Canadian's who also adopt things like the tree, which again if you look at The origin's of the tree was adopted from the Pagan's as a symbol of life to celebrate the Winter Solstis. Not as any symbol of the Catholic church. I have yet to see the pope pray in front of a tree or anoint its roots in Oil.

The Nativity is the Christian symbol of the holiday, not the fricken tree.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Got to love it when a PC'er gets their comeuppance!!!

It's not really an issue of being "PC". Some of the same people who hate religious symbols are the same ones who are anti-PC. If anything, the most hardcore PC people would have taken this the other direction and demand that all religous symbols displayed equally.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's not really an issue of being "PC". Some of the same people who hate religious symbols are the same ones who are anti-PC. If anything, the most hardcore PC people would have taken this the other direction and demand that all religous symbols displayed equally.

That's my stance. I like what the Ontario government is doing, holding ceremonies for EVERY major religious holiday.

For those that CHRISTmas trees have nothing to do with CHRISTmas, what do people put at the top of these trees? Butterflies?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The Nativity is the Christian symbol of the holiday, not the fricken tree.

There can be more than one symbol for the holiday. Lambs, stars, angels, bells, trees...

I don't know why you brought up the Pope, but just because he doesn't bow down in front of a fir tree doesn't mean anything about it's status as a symbol of or a part of a Christian holiday and tradition.

It doesn't have to be in any "Christian doctrine" or anything else to be considered a Christian symbol. It has become one. There is a legend that Saint Boniface used the triangular shape of the tree to represent the holy trinity though. Does that count?

Does it say in any religious doctrine or text that you should hang a crucifix on the wall? I don't know, but I doubt it. Does that mean it's not a religious symbol?

I'm really surprised (like the other poster) that this is even up for discussion. It's a Christmas Tree, put up at Christmas and Christmas is supposed to be a celebration of the birth of Christ. How you can sit there and say "it's got nothing to do with Christianity" is beyond me.

The way you guys are talking it sounds like you think it's just a random tree that just coincidentally gets put up at this time of year, every year, and it has nothing to do with the holiday it shares it's name with. It's another coincidence that it happens to be called a Christmas Tree.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

That's my stance. I like what the Ontario government is doing, holding ceremonies for EVERY major religious holiday.

For those that CHRISTmas trees have nothing to do with CHRISTmas, what do people put at the top of these trees? Butterflies?

a star? ZOMG they are using a universal symbol on their x-mas trees!!
you do realize how many many cultures and religions use a star as a symbol don't you?

let me ask you this... which star is the most recognizable out of them all? i'd say the star of david.... jewish symbol and appears on the flag of israel... and they put stars on x-mas trees... does that mean that x-mas is a jewish holiday?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

You claim my statement is bull****. So you believe that if someone has a Christmas tree, then it is more likely that they are Jewish than Christian. I live next to a Christmas tree lot. I have $1,000 that if I go over to the lot and asked the people buying the trees what their religion is more will say Christian than Jewish. Since you are so adamant that my statement is bull****, I take it you will see the $1,000 bet as easy money. Are we on?

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I can't believe I am arguing with people that "CHRISTMAS TREES" which are a central tradition to CHRISTMAS, THE CELEBRATION OF THE BIRTH OF JESUS CHRIST, cannot be taken as a religious symbol. It has CHRIST right in the name. I really have to shake my head sometimes. True, some people buy "holiday trees" and are not Christian, but to say that Christmas trees cannot be construed as relating to a religious holiday is just incredible.

I agree that if the different religions are compared evenly, more Christians would have Christmas trees than non-Christians. I also think that a Christmas tree is somewhat of a religous symbol.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

a star? ZOMG they are using a universal symbol on their x-mas trees!!
you do realize how many many cultures and religions use a star as a symbol don't you?

let me ask you this... which star is the most recognizable out of them all? i'd say the star of david.... jewish symbol and appears on the flag of israel... and they put stars on x-mas trees... does that mean that x-mas is a jewish holiday?

Does that star on the top of a tree represent something, or is it just a random symbol of, umm, nothing?

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Does that star on the top of a tree represent something, or is it just a random symbol of, umm, nothing?

for most people, it probably symbolizes a hell of a lot of nothing. its just something pretty that they put on there as tradition.

but yes, a minority probably take it as a symbol relating to the story of jesus' birth... i think it represents sheapards or something....

[timbit]

for all the PC posters here:

"Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, our best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. We also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the of the generally accepted calendar year 2007, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere . And without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishes.
By accepting these greetings you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for herself or himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher."




For the rest of you:





Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by timbit

For the rest of you:





Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

Merry Christmas Timbit.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Why is it called a Christmas tree?

Maybe this year I'll put mine up in July. Since it has nothing to do with Christmas and all and it's so pretty, I think I'll give it a little summer lovin'.

Does that make sense? Or does it make more sense to put up a Christmas tree at Christmas? And what is Christmas again? At least traditionally? It's a celebration of the birth of ____________?

And like the secular world loves to point out...there is no evidence that Jesus was born on Christmas.

I do believe Anthony Cook provided a link that pointed out how the Pope made Christmas on December 25th...to not offend the Romans and their pagan rituals.

The Christmas tree has absolutely nothing to do with the birth of Jesus Christ...it is NOT mentioned in the Bible...nor has Christianity 'ever' stressed having a Christmas tree placed there in order to worship the birth of Jesus Christ.

You're grasping for straws that don't exist.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

You claim my statement is bull****. So you believe that if someone has a Christmas tree, then it is more likely that they are Jewish than Christian. I live next to a Christmas tree lot. I have $1,000 that if I go over to the lot and asked the people buying the trees what their religion is more will say Christian than Jewish. Since you are so adamant that my statement is bull****, I take it you will see the $1,000 bet as easy money. Are we on?

Maybe we should compare atheists and theists...and see which group buys more Christmas trees?

The Jewish religion does not believe in the birth of Jesus Christ...of course Christmas would be an irrelevant holiday for them.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I can't believe I am arguing with people that "CHRISTMAS TREES" which are a central tradition to CHRISTMAS, THE CELEBRATION OF THE BIRTH OF JESUS CHRIST, cannot be taken as a religious symbol. It has CHRIST right in the name. I really have to shake my head sometimes. True, some people buy "holiday trees" and are not Christian, but to say that Christmas trees cannot be construed as relating to a religious holiday is just incredible.

If it is a religious symbol...explain how?

To me is serves a bigger purpose for Santa...then it does for Jesus Christ.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

And like the secular world loves to point out...there is no evidence that Jesus was born on Christmas.

I do believe Anthony Cook provided a link that pointed out how the Pope made Christmas on December 25th...to not offend the Romans and their pagan rituals.

The Christmas tree has absolutely nothing to do with the birth of Jesus Christ...it is NOT mentioned in the Bible...nor has Christianity 'ever' stressed having a Christmas tree placed there in order to worship the birth of Jesus Christ.

You're grasping for straws that don't exist.

This is unreal.

It is irrelevant if it was mentioned in the bible or not. It is now part of the Christian celebration known as Christmas. It's not a goddamn coincidence it's called Christmas tree. It's not a coincidence that they happen to be put up at this time of year. It's part of this celebration, is it not? And being a part of this Christian celebration, how can it not be a Christian symbol. It's not a part of anything else. It's not just a random object.

The funny thing about all this is that those who are saying "it's got nothing to do with Christmas" would be the same ones bitching about someone calling it a "Holiday Tree".

[SpitFire40]

I prefer to call them Santa Tree's... who's this Jesus everyone keeps talking about? Is he the fireplace arm guy? If so, tell him to GET BACK TO WORK!

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

This is unreal.

It is irrelevant if it was mentioned in the bible or not. It is now part of the Christian celebration known as Christmas. It's not a goddamn coincidence it's called Christmas tree. It's not a coincidence that they happen to be put up at this time of year. It's part of this celebration, is it not? And being a part of this Christian celebration, how can it not be a Christian symbol. It's not a part of anything else. It's not just a random object.

The funny thing about all this is that those who are saying "it's got nothing to do with Christmas" would be the same ones bitching about someone calling it a "Holiday Tree".

What part of the Christian celebration? How is the birth of Jesus Christ in 'any' way related to the Christmas tree?

Really...what is the Christmas tree for...if not to put presents under it? And who brings those presents? Jesus?

I'm still waiting for the proper explanation of why the Christmas tree is 'Christian' if the 'christian' Bible does not mention it.

At all, ever.

[V]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

There can be more than one symbol for the holiday. Lambs, stars, angels, bells, trees...

That wasn't the Cap'n's distinction, though. There really aren't a whole lot of Christian symbols of Christmas. To ignore that secular society has taken over Christmas is a little silly, IMO.

The Christmas tree is a symbol of secular society taking over Christmas. The nativity scene is the symbol of the original Christmas. I don't know how you can't make a distinction between the two.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken

That wasn't the Cap'n's distinction, though. There really aren't a whole lot of Christian symbols of Christmas. To ignore that secular society has taken over Christmas is a little silly, IMO.

The Christmas tree is a symbol of secular society taking over Christmas. The nativity scene is the symbol of the original Christmas. I don't know how you can't make a distinction between the two.

Like I said...Rouge is grasping for straws that do not exist.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by SpitFire40

... who's this Jesus everyone keeps talking about? !

He's the Christ! The Saviour and Lord!

He was born in
Bethlehem approx. 2000 years ago.

A great many North Americans and people around the world have great faith in Him. Canada as well as the USA and other countries based a lot of their Constitutions and laws on Christian values. This great many(majority) celebrate Jesus' birth on Dec. 25.

Up until this especially intelligent and perceptive generation came along , it was looked at as common place and very acceptable to wish your neighbors and acquaintances a "Merry Christmas" at this time of year.

It seemed they were a lot more joyful about the holiday and celebration, as well.

P.S. I don't recall these people having a hissy fit about other faiths celebrating their beliefs.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by timbit

P.S. I don't recall these people having a hissy fit about other faiths celebrating their beliefs.

Yes, these other generations treated the black and jewish communities extremely well....

I think this wanting to be more inclusive that we're fighting our way through is just one more step in being multicultural and respecting minority groups of other races and religions. We just have to drag some people into the 21st century.

Azure: While the tree has nothing to do with the Bible, it was a tradition ADOPTED BY Christians. Easter eggs are not in the bible, yet kids paint easter eggs in sunday school all the time. These are symbols and traditions that Christians have latched onto over time. You can't ignore that these traditions are related to a religious holiday. Well, I suppose you are proof that you CAN.

And nobody seems willing to address my question as to why the mall christmas trees are topped with the star of Bethlehem if the tree is not related to a religious holiday.

BTW - the dreidel is not mentioned anywhere in Jewish tomes. Again, it is a tradition that the Jewish community added to Hanukkah. Are you going to claim that playing with the dreidel is *NOT* something that is related to a Jewish holiday?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Yes, these other generations treated the black and jewish communities extremely well....

I think this wanting to be more inclusive that we're fighting our way through is just one more step in being multicultural and respecting minority groups of other races and religions. We just have to drag some people into the 21st century.

Respect goes both ways....if they cannot respect the culture and traditions of the majority....why should their culture and traditions be respected?