Cannabis is legal

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Locke

Right, everything should be legal. That makes tons of sense!

If everything is okay then we could save a lot of money on the legal process.

Why has nobody thought of this before?

No one is claiming everything is okay.

The current attempted solution for the problem isn’t working. We need a new idea.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

No one is claiming everything is okay.

The current attempted solution for the problem isn’t working. We need a new idea.

Did you read his post?

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Locke

Did you read his post?

People can have a variety of opinions around the same basic argument. Just because some argue that there needs to be a new form of regulation doesn't mean that everyone has the same opinion on how that regulation should work.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Locke

Did you read his post?

I’m not sure you did. I definitely don’t see your interpretation of it.

Can you expand what you meant?

[PsYcNeT]

To Locke, any relatively un-mainstream argument I make, no matter how cogent or well-reasoned, is replaced with the visual equivalent of a prolapsed butthole farting for however long it takes him to glaze over the post.

[Wormius]

What would the exact benefit of legal (not decriminalized) heroin or meth be?



Are addicts in the situation they're in because those drugs are illegal or because they are somehow damaged? If heroin became legal and so cheap that you could buy it with pocket change, would homelessness, crime and prostitution for drug money be wiped out? Or would the people who are drawn to those drugs just use more and be in the same situation?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

To Locke, any relatively un-mainstream argument I make, no matter how cogent or well-reasoned, is replaced with the visual equivalent of a prolapsed butthole farting for however long it takes him to glaze over the post.

How can you tell? I've yet to see one.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Wormius

What would the exact benefit of legal (not decriminalized) heroin or meth be?

Are addicts in the situation they're in because those drugs are illegal or because they are somehow damaged? If heroin became legal and so cheap that you could buy it with pocket change, would homelessness, crime and prostitution for drug money be wiped out? Or would the people who are drawn to those drugs just use more and be in the same situation?

Well obviously prostitution should be legal too.

My point really is that there's no reason to make something illegal with the effort of protecting the general public (that is the result of self-inflicted damage).

Are we going to outlaw skydiving too?

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Wormius

What would the exact benefit of legal (not decriminalized) heroin or meth be?



Are addicts in the situation they're in because those drugs are illegal or because they are somehow damaged? If heroin became legal and so cheap that you could buy it with pocket change, would homelessness, crime and prostitution for drug money be wiped out? Or would the people who are drawn to those drugs just use more and be in the same situation?

Exact is only known after the fact. But theoretically, potency could be regulated that means that other substances wouldn't be in the product, and that people could use more responsibly.

Access would be regulated, heroine is alarmingly easy to get your hands on at any age. potentially the amount of use could be regulated more carefully.

harm reduction services could target potential first time users and put them into alternative systems targeting the underlying issues of addiction and drug miss use.

Finally, it would reduce the black market (only a fool would think that it would be eliminated) by offering a cleaner product at a comparative price.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Locke

Right, everything should be legal. That makes tons of sense!

If everything is okay then we could save a lot of money on the legal process.

Why has nobody thought of this before?

What benefit does making something illegal serve? What are your goals by making something like heroine illegal and are they being accomplished?

[Red Slinger]

Portugal is a good example of a country that had a very serious drug problem and addressed it by decriminalizing all drugs. It hasn't been perfect but it's an experiment that can be a starting point in the drug policies in places like Canada.

http://time.com/longform/portugal-dr...iminalization/

But in 2001, Portugal took a radical step. It became the first country in the world to decriminalize the consumption of all drugs.

“We realized we were squandering resources,” he told Fonseca. “It made much more sense for us to treat drug addicts as patients who needed help, not as criminals.” Police could concentrate on traffickers and dealers, freeing up resources for the government to invest in treatment and harm reduction practices. A 2015 study found that since Portugal approved the new national strategy in 1999 that led to decriminalization, the per capita social cost of drug misuse decreased by 18%. And according to a report by the Drug Policy Alliance, a New York-based nonprofit with the goal of ending America’s “War on Drugs,” the percentage of people in prison in Portugal for drug law violations has decreased dramatically, from 44% in 1999 to 24% in 2013.

“Drug addiction is something that will always exist,” Fonseca says, articulating one of the principles underlying Portugal’s attitude to drug abuse. But by eliminating the threat of criminal penalties—and along with it, a great deal of stigma—it has become easier for people to seek treatment. Between 1998 and 2011, the number of people in drug treatment increased by over 60%; nearly three-quarters of them received opioid-substitution therapy.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...orld-copied-it

Portugal’s policy rests on three pillars: one, that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs; two, that an individual’s unhealthy relationship with drugs often conceals frayed relationships with loved ones, with the world around them, and with themselves; and three, that the eradication of all drugs is an impossible goal.

The opioid crisis soon stabilised, and the ensuing years saw dramatic drops in problematic drug use, HIV and hepatitis infection rates, overdose deaths, drug-related crime and incarceration rates. HIV infection plummeted from an all-time high in 2000 of 104.2 new cases per million to 4.2 cases per million in 2015. The data behind these changes has been studied and cited as evidence by harm-reduction movements around the globe. It’s misleading, however, to credit these positive results entirely to a change in law.

Continuing with the "Just say No!" and "druggies are criminals" mentality have been negative factors in the current opioid epidemic in Canada and the US. The status quo is not working and we should be looking at other solutions. The Portugal example is a good starting point for discussion on what worked and what didn't.

[Weitz]

Loved my visit to Portugal a couple weeks ago. But the constant harassment of people trying to get us to buy drugs was really annoying. They would always say “it’s fine it’s fine not illegal” but we weren’t interested.

I do think decriminalization is a good step though.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Continuing with the "Just say No!" and "druggies are criminals" mentality have been negative factors in the current opioid epidemic in Canada and the US.
The status quo is not working and we should be looking at other solutions.

Nice straw man. Can we dispense with the false dichotomies?

Most of the people who get hooked on opioids start with drugs prescribed by doctors. I'm not clear on how making those drugs even more readily available will reduce addiction.

I'll ask you the same question: Do you think regulating and restricting the availability of drugs serves any purpose? Do you think codeine, percocet, and Tylenol 4s should be available at convenience stores?

I'm not even saying we shouldn't decriminalize drugs. I'm just saying we'd better go in with open eyes, and recognize that it's going to make it easier for people to kill themselves - either the fast way and the slow way - and we still live in a society that tries to deter suicide.

And just because the status quo has bad outcomes doesn't mean an alternative approach will have improved outcomes.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'm not even saying we shouldn't decriminalize drugs. I'm just saying we'd better go in with open eyes, and recognize that it's going to make it easier for people to kill themselves - either the fast way and the slow way - and we still live in a society that tries to deter suicide.

And just because the status quo has bad outcomes doesn't mean an alternative approach will have improved outcomes.

For one, if we take Portugal as the data sample, decriminalisation actually has the opposite effect, as less people are doing and dying from drugs since decriminalisation took effect. So, for the sake of open eyes, we should actually realise the opposite of what you’re suggesting the outcome would be.

And the last line is a pretty fine straw man itself. Nobody is saying making any change at all will be an improvement, people are saying that there is significant room for improvement through change.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Nice straw man. Can we dispense with the false dichotomies?

That wasn't my intention but I see your point. What I was trying to convey is that under the current laws and norms the issues with drugs are getting worse. I don't know if decriminalization, legalization or something else is the answer, but it's pretty clear that we can do better.

Most of the people who get hooked on opioids start with drugs prescribed by doctors. I'm not clear on how making those drugs even more readily available will reduce addiction.

That's true regarding prescription issues and hopefully, over time, the legalization of cannabis and the evaporating social stigma around it will help reduce that issue along with better education and perhaps more oversight into pharmaceutical lobbying.

Regarding your second point, the reason I brought up the Portugal example is because of the data. It's not a thought experiment but rather evidence to the contrary of what you're suggesting.

I'll ask you the same question: Do you think regulating and restricting the availability of drugs serves any purpose? Do you think codeine, percocet, and Tylenol 4s should be available at convenience stores?

Yes, I think regulation serves an important purpose. But regulation and criminalization aren't the same thing.

I'm not even saying we shouldn't decriminalize drugs. I'm just saying we'd better go in with open eyes, and recognize that it's going to make it easier for people to kill themselves - either the fast way and the slow way - and we still live in a society that tries to deter suicide.

Again, that's why I brought up Portugal: to look at this with open eyes rather than discuss this only in theory.

I think the conversation regarding suicide is adjacent to this but not necessarily addressing the main point.

And just because the status quo has bad outcomes doesn't mean an alternative approach will have improved outcomes.

Agreed. That's why I brought up an alternative that has demonstrated improved, albeit imperfect, outcomes.

[Coach]

Why do people associate legalization with availability in corner stores? No one is advocating for that.

[cral12]

Theoretically speaking, if one was inexperienced with cannabis (have studied it in medical context only, loosely familiar with its recreational usage), and one wanted to be the ultimate party host (i.e. next to the rum, gin, vodka, beer, wine, have cannabis as option for guests), what would you recommend:
- a vapourizer (preferably portable, for flexibility - so many options and price points)
- strains to have available

Thanks in advance for the cannaBliss advice : )

[Coach]

Originally Posted by cral12

Theoretically speaking, if one was inexperienced with cannabis (have studied it in medical context only, loosely familiar with its recreational usage), and one wanted to be the ultimate party host (i.e. next to the rum, gin, vodka, beer, win, have cannabis as option for guests), what would you recommend:
- a vapourizer (preferably portable, for flexibility - so many options and price points)
- strains to have available

Thanks in advance for the cannaBliss advice : )

A vaporizer with cartridge or disposable ones (recyclable) are a neat item. It might be a cool thing to have for people who have never tried it. You can get pre-loaded ones with ~100-150 hits. And it’s concentrate so it’s strong. People who have little experience probably only need 1 or 2.

Having a few jars of flower would be cool, maybe with a little pipe and some papers for people and a grinder (grinder is important if you have flower). For presentation I would go to the dollar store and you can get little mini mason jars with a space to write on them in chalk. Would be neat to have threee or 4 strains there.

If it’s a party, you probably want sativa or hybrid strains. Indica will have people slowing down.

[Coach]

Also of note for those inexperienced, unless you’re doing it all the time and leaving ash out and such, weed smoke doesn’t stick to your home. If you’re hosting a party and people smoke inside the smell should be gone by the morning.

If you don’t want smoking in your house period pbviously that’s your prerogative. But your friends might not want to be forced outside to have the weed.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Wormius

What would the exact benefit of legal (not decriminalized) heroin or meth be?

There are several benefits. The first is that what was purchased would be what is received. No more dangerous mixing that has resulted in so many fentanyl deaths. The drugs would be out of the hands of criminal organizations and into the hands of controlled business. This would reduce crime. Once legalized, perhaps there would be more compassion for those that are addicted, maybe an addict wouldn't need to steal to support their habit because there are other options. Most importantly, the militias that exist in places like Honduras or Mexico would dry up, as they wouldn't have a product to sell anymore, as their customers now buy from more standard supply chains.