Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Someone may have mentioned this already but Bennett had his best game apart from Jankowski - I’m super fans of both of them but Janko needs to pick it up and make things happen when he’s in lineup, practicing etc.

Bennett looked like he could play a great centre ice to me last game. Poised with he puck he made great entries and some nice curl back dishes to guys.

I believe Bennett will string many games like last one together and the production will follow.

Tkachuk Bennett Czarnik

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Ok. I know we love to call Neal a sniper. And talk about 20 goal seasons. Can we get a quick reality check?

Neal once got 40 riding shotgun with Crosby. Nice. The last 2 years he is average 24 goals and 42 points in 70 games.

Brouwer, the 2 years before coming to Calgary, averaged 19 goals and 41 points.

These things are not so different.

Over the last 3 seasons only 32 guys have more goals in the entire league than Neal.

He is a goal scorer....no question.

[EldrickOnIce]

Long term Bennett is better served by playing with some talent, getting some confidence, and maybe turning the corner.
The last thing he needs right now is the added responsibility of going back to center.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Someone may have mentioned this already but Bennett had his best game apart from Jankowski - I’m super fans of both of them but Janko needs to pick it up and make things happen when he’s in lineup, practicing etc.

Bennett looked like he could play a great centre ice to me last game. Poised with he puck he made great entries and some nice curl back dishes to guys.

I believe Bennett will string many games like last one together and the production will follow.

Tkachuk Bennett Czarnik

So Tkachuk on 3rd line?

[Yobbo]

Bennett is a huge part of my team going forward. In no way do I want him traded.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Psytic]

So if he continues to struggle do we do a change of scenery deal for another struggling high ranked pick like Dylan Strome and a third? If it doesnt pan out we still got Mangiapane.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Gulutzan didn’t change his lines.

Bennett got his chance on the top line for 2 games, produced multiple points in one of them, then got demoted when Stewart got picked up on waivers...because reasons!

Brodie was complete garbage for 2 years because Gulutzan didn’t change his pairings.

Sorry, but no one was going to produce with the linemates Bennett had. The way Bennett was set-up in years 2 and 3 is not how you set young players up for any level of success. Hanging it entirely on him his ridiculous. The Flames hired a coach who couldn’t coach. Lineups weren’t working and the team wasn’t winning, and yet the lines were static. That’s just idiotic coaching. He’s no longer a head coach in this league, and I think we could argue he’s not a coach in the NHL any more.

Sometimes coaches are that bad.

I’m not excusing Bennett entirely, he struggled with his circumstances and couldn’t rise above them. Good organizations simply don’t put young players in the position the Flames put Bennett in. The last two years the Flames organization failed the players just as much if not more than the players failed the organization.

Sam Bennett had way more than 2 games on the top line. When Monahan went down with the injury, he was the primary beneficiary and was unable to find the requisite chemistry with Gaudreau. The organization and coaches did not have it out for Sam Bennett like you might think. They played Sam Bennett a lot more than he deserved in my opinion and it’s the part of the reason why the team failed in the last half of the season. The top 2 lines did their jobs but the bottom 6 was disastrous and it’s the same reason why the GM basically blew it up this summer.
Blaming linemates is also a cop out and I loathe that excuse the most. Sam Bennett was drafted to be a difference maker and a driver of play. Playing against other 3rd lines, you’d think he should’ve dominated other 3rd lines, but he struggled outside of December. At the end of the day, a 4th liner in Micheal Ferland beat out Sam Bennett out of the top line spot. It was there for the taking for anyone, but Ferland earned that spot as the chemistry was undeniable.
It’s really up to Bennett right now, he can continue to play hard and effectively and push up the line up. Or if his game drops off, he might end up on the 4th line again. Time will only tell, but based on the way everything seems to be shaping up and with all the rumors, I get the feeling this is the last season to prove it.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Ok. I know we love to call Neal a sniper. And talk about 20 goal seasons. Can we get a quick reality check?

Neal once got 40 riding shotgun with Crosby. Nice. The last 2 years he is average 24 goals and 42 points in 70 games.

Brouwer, the 2 years before coming to Calgary, averaged 19 goals and 41 points.

These things are not so different.

What do you want to call him then because I honestly couldn't care less.

Stay at home defenseman?
Backup goalie?
Power forward?
Shoot out specialist?

Doesn't change the fact that one of the five players listed need to find a way to mesh with the Troy Brouwer clone and make the third line go.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What do you want to call him then because I honestly couldn't care less.

Stay at home defenseman?
Backup goalie?
Power forward?
Shoot out specialist?

Doesn't change the fact that one of the five players listed need to find a way to mesh with the Troy Brouwer clone and make the third line go.

Nomenclature wasn’t the point.

Just seems like being in the low 20 goals low 40 points range is decent but not amazing.

And guys with third line minutes don’t put up first line numbers

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Nomenclature wasn’t the point.

Just seems like being in the low 20 goals low 40 points range is decent but not amazing.

And guys with third line minutes don’t put up first line numbers

No the point was one of five guys have to find chemistry with him.

You replied with suggesting Neal stinks.

You were off point from the beginning.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If Bennett is the guy to find mojo with Neal his season, and potentially his career is saved.

Will it be Bennett? Dube? Jankowski? Ryan? Frolik? ... one of these guys has to get stapled to the sniper and they're set.

I didn’t say Neal stinks, my friend.

I just questioned whether stapling someone to Neal means they are set.

[Flash Walken]

Is there any player in the league with a similar rate of advanced stat production with such a limited rate of converted offense?

Trying to find out if there are NHL comparables to Bennett in that regard.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I didn’t say Neal stinks, my friend.

I just questioned whether stapling someone to Neal means they are set.

Neal’s shot is a weapon; his linemates need to figure out how to set him up in shooting/scoring position.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

This is something you are steadfast on and man, could we not disagree more. Gulutzan took a guy who needed coaching and failed him.

I have documented elsewhere Bennett’s and Monahan’s Year 1, and subsequent line mates.

The top line is the top line. They dragged Ferland along.
Tkachuk played well with the same linemates that Bennett had in year 1. Bennett stalled with Bollig, Hathaway, etc.

Also have discussed the number of players that were flat or worse under GG - for example on D - Hamilton, Gio, Brodie

The team as a whole did way, way worse, and very few players, even if they did well, did better.

The coach decides the linenates, minutes, and situation a player is put in. Damn right you can point at a coach for a mishandled player underachieving.

Unless Bennett wrestled the lineup card and crayon out of Gulutzan’s hand, he wasn’t going to be given a good opportunity.

The biggest single factor that attributed to Sam Bennett’s struggles in his sophomore season vs his rookie season was that he wasn’t bumped up by Mikeal Backlund anymore, not the coach IMO. Backlund has shown a history in proping up players ala Lance Bouma who also had a surprisingly similar production level to Bennett (16 goals, 34 points).

Having to drive your own line is a tough thing to do in the NHL and it’s even tougher when you have to do it in a position that is not natural to the player. Bennett was a winger for most of his life growing up and hasn’t learned the nuances of that position.

He’s a winger in my eyes and at his peak, if all things go right, I can see him becoming a very physical, 20 goal scorer with a bulldog mentality. Maybe he might reach it, but maybe he won’t, but to me, it’s not coaching that’ll get him to this level, it’s all on him. Ferland found a way to figure it out on his own, so to should Sam Bennett. No more excuses.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Psytic

So if he continues to struggle do we do a change of scenery deal for another struggling high ranked pick like Dylan Strome and a third? If it doesnt pan out we still got Mangiapane.

Strome is in a different situation. With only 31 games so far in the NHL, the Coyotes have taken a deliberately slow approach with him. So he's not ripe for change of scenery. He's tracking in a positive direction.

Possible change of scenery types would be
Pool Party (not likely but fits the bill)
Pavel Zacha
Timo Meier
Lawson Crouse

Those are all 2015 guys so their teams may not be ready to give up on them yet. And most have out produced Sam so far.

How about Nick Ritchie? Ducks struggling to sign him.
Virtanen would also be a candidate but he's awful.
Hayden Fleury to add a young dman?
Sonny Milano and a 1st?

The reality is that I think this is what you are looking at more than likely in terms of the type of deal.

I think the better route, as possible trade scenarios, is that he's a chip to be played to address a need elsewhere (#1 younger goalie)

[colbym72]

Originally Posted by Rick M.

Neal’s shot is a weapon; his linemates need to figure out how to set him up in shooting/scoring position.

I like that every thread on this forum turns into a Sam Bennett discussion but somehow the Bennett thread started evolving into a James Neal discussion

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Sam Bennett had way more than 2 games on the top line. When Monahan went down with the injury, he was the primary beneficiary and was unable to find the requisite chemistry with Gaudreau. The organization and coaches did not have it out for Sam Bennett like you might think. They played Sam Bennett a lot more than he deserved in my opinion and it’s the part of the reason why the team failed in the last half of the season. The top 2 lines did their jobs but the bottom 6 was disastrous and it’s the same reason why the GM basically blew it up this summer.
Blaming linemates is also a cop out and I loathe that excuse the most. Sam Bennett was drafted to be a difference maker and a driver of play. Playing against other 3rd lines, you’d think he should’ve dominated other 3rd lines, but he struggled outside of December. At the end of the day, a 4th liner in Micheal Ferland beat out Sam Bennett out of the top line spot. It was there for the taking for anyone, but Ferland earned that spot as the chemistry was undeniable.
It’s really up to Bennett right now, he can continue to play hard and effectively and push up the line up. Or if his game drops off, he might end up on the 4th line again. Time will only tell, but based on the way everything seems to be shaping up and with all the rumors, I get the feeling this is the last season to prove it.

This isn't entirely true.

The sample size of Bennett on that line with Gaudreau and Monahan is still too small to hang your hat on, but you're right it was more than two games. Probably about 5 when you see total minutes together in the 75 minute range.

However in those 75 minutes the trio had the best numbers of any line the Flames put together for more than 50 minutes last year.

They bested the Ferland option in terms of shot attempts, scoring chance splits and high danger splits which fit my eye test last year perfectly. They didn't finish though, which is the story of Bennett's career (he and who ever he plays with).

Gaudreau Monahan Ferland
CF% 54.84%
SC% 54.32%
HD% 55.32%

All good numbers

Gaudreau Monahan Bennett
CF% 59.49%
SC% 55.56%
HD% 53.33%

You could certainly make a case that Gulutzan should have stuck with that longer.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I didn’t say Neal stinks, my friend.

I just questioned whether stapling someone to Neal means they are set.

You implied it lifelong pal by bringing Brouwer into it.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Bingo

This isn't entirely true.

The sample size of Bennett on that line with Gaudreau and Monahan is still too small to hang your hat on, but you're right it was more than two games. Probably about 5 when you see total minutes together in the 75 minute range.

However in those 75 minutes the trio had the best numbers of any line the Flames put together for more than 50 minutes last year.

They bested the Ferland option in terms of shot attempts, scoring chance splits and high danger splits which fit my eye test last year perfectly. They didn't finish though, which is the story of Bennett's career (he and who ever he plays with).

Gaudreau Monahan Ferland
CF% 54.84%
SC% 54.32%
HD% 55.32%

All good numbers

Gaudreau Monahan Bennett
CF% 59.49%
SC% 55.56%
HD% 53.33%

You could certainly make a case that Gulutzan should have stuck with that longer.

To me, the eye test does not jive with those numbers. I saw a line that lacked chemistry and execution. They’ve tried various players on that top line and the only option that truly showed any success was Hudler and Ferland. Lindholm looks tocbe promising as well.

But it’s pretty obvious that Brad Treliving didn’t like it either since he basically said goodbye to half the forwards on this roster and made it pretty clear that the spot would be either Lindholm’s or Neal’s.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

To me, the eye test does not jive with those numbers. I saw a line that lacked chemistry and execution. They’ve tried various players on that top line and the only option that truly showed any success was Hudler and Ferland. Lindholm looks tocbe promising as well.

But it’s pretty obvious that Brad Treliving didn’t like it either since he basically said goodbye to half the forwards on this roster and made it pretty clear that the spot would be either Lindholm’s or Neal’s.

Well the numbers align with my eyes in a limited sample size.

You don't like Bennett though, so maybe you had a bit of bias leak in when viewing.

Treliving certainly altered the forward group and added depth, no doubt. I don't see that as directly linked to Bennett's 5 games with Monahan and Gaudreau though.