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Old 09-29-2018, 03:43 AM   #1521
Monahan For Mayor
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Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindy
Tkachuk - Backlund - Czarnik
Dube - Ryan - Neal
Bennett - Janko - Frolik
Eat Bread(Rotate with Bennet and Dube)

Gio - Brodie
Hanifin - Hamonic
Valimaki - Stone

Smith
Rittich
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:41 AM   #1522
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There is a problem in putting Neal on the 3rd line. He has never had less than 17 minute/game in his career. His production will fall off if his ice time is reduced. He is not getting paid 5.75 in his first year ( expected best year) of his 5 year deal to put up 25-35 pts.

Neal is also accustomed to playing with top-6 line mates.
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:44 AM   #1523
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I was under the impression that Neal played 3rd line 5-on-5 and 1st line PP in Vegas
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:52 AM   #1524
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I really hope they put Tkachuk on a more offensive line than with Backlund and Frolik. Let him get 70+ points this season with tons of offensive starts.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Czarnik
Tkachuk-Lindholm-Neal
Bennett-Backlund-Frolik
Dube/Mangiapane-Jankowski-Ryan
Hathaway

Brodie-Giordano
Hanifin-Hamonic
Andersson-Stone
Kulak
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:52 AM   #1525
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I really hope they put Tkachuk on a more offensive line than with Backlund and Frolik. Let him get 70+ points this season with tons of offensive starts.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Czarnik
Tkachuk-Lindholm-Neal
Bennett-Backlund-Frolik
Dube/Mangiapane-Jankowski-Ryan
Hathaway

Brodie-Giordano
Hanifin-Hamonic
Andersson-Stone
Kulak

Smith
Gillies

Last edited by keenan87; 09-29-2018 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:07 AM   #1526
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Quote:
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I was under the impression that Neal played 3rd line 5-on-5 and 1st line PP in Vegas
His linemates : Perron and Haula all played 17+ minutes a game

All the top-6 in Vegas got between 2:22 and 2:33 pp time per game

Tuch would have been the 3rd line RW who got 14 pts on the PP (same as Neal) and was put on the PP (2:20 / game) without his line mates. Filling in when Perron, smith and Neal were injured.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:16 AM   #1527
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Yeah Neal was actually third on the Knights last year in five on five ice time. The Flames are pretty deep so they're going to have to make some decisions this year with what to do. They'll have to steal from the top two lines or use the bottom six a lot on the PK.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:17 AM   #1528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricardodw View Post
There is a problem in putting Neal on the 3rd line. He has never had less than 17 minute/game in his career. His production will fall off if his ice time is reduced. He is not getting paid 5.75 in his first year ( expected best year) of his 5 year deal to put up 25-35 pts.

Neal is also accustomed to playing with top-6 line mates.
This concern is significantly over-stated IMO.

Last year Neal had 14:42 of even strength ice-time, and 2:27 of PP time. He is still going to get his PP time regardless of which line he is on. And that is where a good chunk of the production comes from. If he is on the 1st PP unit, he isn't going to drop to 25-35 points, no matter which line he plays on.

As for even strength time, he is 31. Cutting him from 14:42 to a little under 14 is probably a good thing for him. And on the 3rd line, he would probably get a strong helping of offensive zone starts. So a little less total time probably results in no less quality time. And it keeps him fresher throughout the year.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:24 AM   #1529
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A team to look at from last year was the Leafs as they had three centers they wanted to get on the ice.

I had Toronto, Tampa and Boston as deep teams ... are their others?

The Leafs had Matthew at 16 minutes, but then 8 forwards between 12.5 and 14.5
The Bolts had Kucherov at 16, Point at 15.25 then five forwards between 13.25 and 15.25
The Bruins nobody really at the top and their top 8 forwards averaging 12.5 to 14.75, so maybe the model for Calgary?

Calgary last year didn't have the depth. They had Gaudreau at 16, then the next 6 at 12.5 to 14.75

The Flames were one less player getting prime ice, and similar to Toronto at the top. This year I could see this going even deeper with Jankowski and Bennett on the top line.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:30 AM   #1530
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Utilization is important.

Icetime when you're trailing is different than icetime when you're up. Extra-shifting guys that are hot. Offensive zone starts vs defensive.

Peters is apparently good at these things. We shall see.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:59 AM   #1531
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Quote:
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Yeah Neal was actually third on the Knights last year in five on five ice time. The Flames are pretty deep so they're going to have to make some decisions this year with what to do. They'll have to steal from the top two lines or use the bottom six a lot on the PK.
I agree that the Flames are much deeper than they were last season.... but Vegas lead the Pacific from start to finish.

To somehow think that the Flames are deeper than last years Knights has logic flaws.

It makes sense that the Flames will not have to rely on Gaudreau and Monahan to do the bulk of the scoring. Will people be happy with them dropping to 60 pts ? Are fans going to be happy with Backlund actually being a shut down centre if he gets Cody Eakin type stats (27 pts)?

Nashville top 6 forwards with 35-64 pts

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Old 09-29-2018, 10:02 AM   #1532
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Or maybe your overly conservative assumptions won't apply.

Good teams actually tend to score more goals, so you know...
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:48 AM   #1533
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Yeah I seen a Peters interview on Facebook a couple days ago. He said that guys on the RW willl be swapped around a lot depending on the status of the game and their play.
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:04 AM   #1534
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I agree that the Flames are much deeper than they were last season.... but Vegas lead the Pacific from start to finish.

To somehow think that the Flames are deeper than last years Knights has logic flaws.

It makes sense that the Flames will not have to rely on Gaudreau and Monahan to do the bulk of the scoring. Will people be happy with them dropping to 60 pts ? Are fans going to be happy with Backlund actually being a shut down centre if he gets Cody Eakin type stats (27 pts)?

Nashville top 6 forwards with 35-64 pts
I think it's a massive logic flaw to always use straight points or standings as the definitive answer to every question when so much more goes into how hockey teams operate and succeed than simple points in the standings.

Most in the hockey world thought the Knights did a terrible job in the expansion draft and were tanking.

That isn't a deep lineup to any of those hockey executives. They gelled, they got great goaltending, and they got a lot of bounces.

To simply look at the standings and say see they have to be deeper is the most flawed logic I can find.
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:56 AM   #1535
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Quote:
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I think it's a massive logic flaw to always use straight points or standings as the definitive answer to every question when so much more goes into how hockey teams operate and succeed than simple points in the standings.

Most in the hockey world thought the Knights did a terrible job in the expansion draft and were tanking.

That isn't a deep lineup to any of those hockey executives. They gelled, they got great goaltending, and they got a lot of bounces.

To simply look at the standings and say see they have to be deeper is the most flawed logic I can find.
109 pts in an NHL season does in fact say something about the strength of a line up. That is a major reason that Flames fans are excited about getting a significant player from that line-up.
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Old 09-29-2018, 12:48 PM   #1536
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What about this...

Giordano - Brodie
Hanifin - Andersson
Valimaki - Hamonic
Stone
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Old 09-29-2018, 01:00 PM   #1537
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Quote:
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What about this...

Giordano - Brodie
Hanifin - Andersson
Valimaki - Hamonic
Stone
Hm, I like it
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Old 09-29-2018, 01:01 PM   #1538
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What about this...

Giordano - Brodie
Hanifin - Andersson
Valimaki - Hamonic
Stone
give it a year, or even a few months, and I think you'll see it
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Old 09-29-2018, 01:54 PM   #1539
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109 pts in an NHL season does in fact say something about the strength of a line up. That is a major reason that Flames fans are excited about getting a significant player from that line-up.
The Knights, Ducks and Kings were 1.2.3 in WAR contributions from skaters last season.

Now given any WAR model is built on assigning weight to stats by an objective source but it does point to goaltending and bounces as an indicator of how a season went.

Certainly not saying the Knights didn't end up having a good roster, but forward depth may not be a direct causal relationship to points in the standing on it's own.
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:11 PM   #1540
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I've seen a lot of people writing Kulak off - and I get it since he cleared waivers before arbitration, and Valimaki is a first round pick. But I'd like to make a case that Kulak should not only make the team, but play the season among our top six defensemen:

1) Kulak maybe hasn't been great in preseason, but people tend to have a short memory. He had a poor preseason in 17-18 only to play 71 steady games for us. More importantly, he's had a pair of pretty strong preseasons in both 2015-16 and 2016-17. Remember this, from back when he was only twenty one?

https://calgaryherald.com/sports/hoc...-season-finale

He was more aggressively up in the play then, than he's been now - which might be a sign of Gulutzan's effect on his game more than anything else. It should also be a reason to be measured about Valimaki's preseason, as Kulak didn't spend much of 2015-16 in the NHL (even though he should have, but I digress). All it takes in the NHL is one game where you cough up the puck against forechecking pressure and you could get sent down.

2) Kulak's offensive production isn't necessarily "bad". Yes, he wasn't featured on a power play unit (and probably rightfully so), but of the 208 defensemen to log 1000+ five on five minutes throughout the last two seasons, his 0.56 points/60 minutes ranks 152nd. In a similar range or trailing him are names like

Travis Hamonic (150th)
Adam Larsson (151st)
Brian Dumoulin (153rd)
Michael Stone (175th)
Brandon Montour (162nd)
Jay Bouwmeester (166th)

And I don't think the Flames were all that offensively lucky the last year in particular where he logged most of his ice time, so it's possible he could have been more productive on a more productive team.

3) And on that note, the consensus is that Valimaki has more upside than Kulak. Well, sure.

But defense is a complicated position to prognosticate. Just look at a guy like Nate Schmidt - during his 23 year old season he was still splitting time in the AHL, and after being pidgeonholed as a bottom pair defenseman in Washington, found himself as Vegas' best defenseman last year. Speaking of Washington, look at Michal Kempny, a guy who Chicago didn't think deserved to play as a regular in their top six, yet he was playing top four minutes on the Cup Champs. These kinds of examples are of course cherry-picked, but you can go around the league and find these kind of stories because that's the nature of the defense position.

Saying Kulak tops out as a bottom pair defenseman at this point - when he is coming off his 23/24 year old season - is premature. Every team that goes deep almost invariably has a guy on their blueline top four who took a slower, steadier path... Anton Stralman, Brian Dumoulin, the two guys mentioned earlier, Justin Braun... even our team has Giordano who was hardly a finished product at Kulak's age. I think Kulak has real upside and giving up on him now would not be prudent. Even if it looks like there are more dynamic prospects behind him.

4) Kulak outperformed Stone by a significant margin last year. To me it was kind of obvious just from watching, but the numbers bear it out too:

Spoiler!


Now it's obvious Stone needs a puck moving partner, and maybe Valimaki can be that guy. But it's also possible that Stone's inability to exit his zone acts against Valimaki and causes the kid to lose confidence and reign his game in. This is a kid who's still 19 as of today, and you can seriously damage a player's development if they spend all their NHL time covering for others. We've already done it to Bennett, who nowadays seems to resemble a Lance Bouma in terms of just making safe bottom-of-lineup player plays and peeling off for a line change. I want Valimaki to succeed as much as the next guy, and it's possible Stone's inability to move the puck could be more toxic for his development than it seems. Maybe not, of course... but if Kulak doesn't make the team, the above is one of only three likely pairings. The other two have their own issues:

Stone-Andersson or Andersson-Stone - you've got a RHS playing his off-side. This is probably going to end badly. Even if the handedness proves to be not a problem, the poor skating of the pair could be one. I'd rather not repeat that ugly Wideman-Engelland pair from a few years ago just to force this pair.

Valimaki-Andersson - This is two rookies on the same pair. Maybe it could work, but it's also got a lot of potential to backfire. I'm not opposed to trying it later in the season, maybe January or February, but I don't think it's responsible to start the season like this.

Kulak can not only play the left side if paired with Andersson, but those two have actually played together before in Stockton. He also has more experience playing the right side than Stone or Andersson do playing the left - he played on the right for a huge chunk of his junior career in Vancouver, and spent a lot of time in Stockton on the right as well. I forget who it was (Treliving?) but they basically said the key to playing your off-side is being able to skate, which also disqualifies Stone, Prout, and Andersson as guys you'd want on their offside. If Andersson makes the team, Kulak is the ideal partner for him as he brings a bit of experience, skating, and allows Andersson to play his own game comfortably.

5) Kulak-Stone was not a bad pair by any means last season, despite Stone's aformentioned shortcomings. Even in terms of goals, they were break-even at 5-on-5 and in terms of shot attempts and scoring chances, they were on the right side of 50%. This was a solid pair, and solid is not a bad thing from your third pair.

6) Valimaki probably will pass Kulak at some point, but even if he is marginally better this year, it's doubtful he will make enough of an impact to be worth burning an ELC year. If our window is Gaudreau's contract, keeping Valimaki on his ELC through '22 lines up with the end of Gaudreau's contract. Of course you burn ELC years on impact players - but is a third pairing defenseman an impact player, regardless of upside? The only scenario I can see that being the case is if you have a Sergachyev type talent on your third pair and I don't believe Valimaki is in that supremely dynamic tier. In fact, out of all the prospects we've had, I think only Fox had that kind of elite level of difference-making play to his game.

7) Kulak might have cleared waivers before arbitration - but he might not clear waivers tomorrow. An arbitration case is not something a team would have wanted to take on but right now he's under contract. Losing him to waivers could be the biggest mistake since we lost Byron to waivers.
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