The Athletic: Dube article

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Would you not agree though that Bennett is a bust in relation to his draft position?

I don't think a lot of teams go into a draft with a top 5 pick and come away thinking "we got ourselves a good 3rd liner" and are satisfied with that.

This is the fundamental problem with the whole debate. Some people refuse to evaluate him simply as a player on the roster - they continue to cling to the fact that he hasn't lived up to the draft billing.

It is true, he hasn't. But 4 years later, that is no linger relevant. Does it matter where other players were drafted? No. Players need to be evaluated based on what they bring t the team.

But there is a group of fans who refuse to accept Bennett as the player that he is, because they remain bitter that he never became the player that they hoped.

This refusal to separate the player from his draft position several years ago causes some fans to say they would rather keep a borderline NHLer than Bennett, not because the borderline player is better (he isn't) but because those fans simply remain disappointed over unrealized expectations.

It is this view that causes so many others to react passionately.

Once the draft is over, where players were drafted is irrelevant. The draft was merely a snapshot in time. From then on, players should be evaluated for what they are, not what fans wanted them to be.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I feel like there are very, very few people saying this, and the outrage has now become entirely disproportionate. For every post calling Bennett a washout there seem to be dozens of complaints about the Bennett haters.

Maybe my perception is just skewed.

I think your perception is skewed, to the point of almost being bizarre. Every thread is derailed by Bennett haters. And they are followed by those railing against the haters. But it is always initiated by the irrational hate.

And it is annoying as ####.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I think your perception is skewed, to the point of almost being bizarre. Every thread is derailed by Bennett haters. And they are followed by those railing against the haters. But it is always initiated by the irrational hate.

And it is annoying as ####.

Well then maybe save your outrage for those posters. Otherwise it seems like some people want to argue with any comment about Bennett that is not positive.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Players need to be evaluated based on what they bring t the team.

This is my issue with Bennett, his production not his draft position.

Sam Bennett has produced no better than Troy Brouwer has during the past three seasons.

82 18 21 39
74 13 12 25
76 6 16 22

It's a good thing Sam only makes $1.95 and not $4.5 like Troy.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I feel like there are very, very few people saying this, and the outrage has now become entirely disproportionate. For every post calling Bennett a washout there seem to be dozens of complaints about the Bennett haters.

Maybe my perception is just skewed.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I think your perception is skewed, to the point of almost being bizarre. Every thread is derailed by Bennett haters. And they are followed by those railing against the haters. But it is always initiated by the irrational hate.

And it is annoying as ####.

No, I think Strage Brew is probably right about this. But then in response I say "what of it?" This is a fan site for the Calgary Flames. Members of this community are irrationally devoted to a hockey team, so when a handful of posters cast ridiculous aspersions on popular players it is entirely unsurprising that high numbers of members would respond with incredulity.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by David Struch

This is my issue with Bennett, his production not his draft position.

Sam Bennett has produced no better than Troy Brouwer has during the past three seasons.

82 18 21 39
74 13 12 25
76 6 16 22

It's a good thing Sam only makes $1.95 and not $4.5 like Troy.

But even in the absence of offensive production Bennett is eminently more useful than Brouwer. What a terrible comparison. Unlike Brouwer, Bennett can skate and forecheck, and he actually does a good deal better driving his own line.

[Burner]

just read the article and not sure if its been mentioned in the thread but nice to reminded that his pick came as a result of the Kris Russell trade

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by David Struch

This is my issue with Bennett, his production not his draft position.

Sam Bennett has produced no better than Troy Brouwer has during the past three seasons.

82 18 21 39
74 13 12 25
76 6 16 22

It's a good thing Sam only makes $1.95 and not $4.5 like Troy.

Third liners produce an average of 22-39 points per season. Bennett on the third line did the same, but made less money.

His production shouldn't be a problem if you're looking at third liners and their pay cheque.

Everyone wants more out of the guy, but he doesn't need to be more productive to hold his spot as an average 3rd line NHLer.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Third liners produce an average of 22-39 points per season. Bennett on the third line did the same, but made less money.

His production shouldn't be a problem if you're looking at third liners and their pay cheque.

Everyone wants more out of the guy, but he doesn't need to be more productive to hold his spot as an average 3rd line NHLer.

That's the thing, Sam Bennett's production the past two seasons has been...

81 13 13 26
82 11 15 26

Which is a bottom tier 3rd liner.

Added to this is Sam now appears to have fallen to the 4th line, which means even less production, maybe he'll be the best (highest scoring) 4th liner in the league?

[Monahan For Mayor]

I just think a lot of people have Bennett cemented into their line ups. I see a lot of people saying it's either Dube or Mangipane to take hathaways spot. Which I do agree with. I do however think Mang and or Dube could also be in the running for Bennetts spot. I personally have been just as impressed with those two as I have with Bennett. So why are we saying neither of them can take Bennetts spot ? I think if all 3 of them continue to play good games for the last week of preason they should all make the roster. Dube, Mang, Bennett and even Janko can all share time in the bottom 6 if the two rookies can prove they are ready. Of course if they do get into NHL games and don't look ready then we can send them down. At this point tho I would give them some games to see what they can do. Maybe the last couple of games really puts Bennett on another level then them but I don't see it like that currently.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by David Struch

That's the thing, Sam Bennett's production the past two seasons has been...

81 13 13 26
82 11 15 26

Which is a bottom tier 3rd liner.

Added to this is Sam now appears to have fallen to the 4th line, which means even less production, maybe he'll be the best (highest scoring) 4th liner in the league?

I think you're grasping now. He's a third line player making less than third line average money.

His 36 point season and on ice shooting percentage last year suggest that if he had the same opportunity this season he's likely be a 35 point player this year.

The fact that Calgary now has some pretty high end depth and he may get pushed to the fourth line doesn't take away from his production history or what he brings.

[David Struch]

I just don't think Flames fans will be satisfied with a 15-24 point Sam Bennett on the 4th line, (and they'll be calling for his head) This is assuming his production will drop a couple of points (at least) with a couple less minutes per game - if he does indeed end up on the 4th line.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Burner

just read the article and not sure if its been mentioned in the thread but nice to reminded that his pick came as a result of the Kris Russell trade

Russell's regression, his signing with the Oilers, and the emergence of Dube make this trade the gift that just keeps giving, and giving, and giving...

And it will continue to give us fits and giggles for at least another three years, and that's not counting the years of contributions Dube will make.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by David Struch

I just don't think Flames fans will be satisfied with a 15-24 point Sam Bennett on the 4th line, (and they'll be calling for his head) This is assuming his production will drop a couple of points (at least) with a couple less minutes per game - if he does indeed end up on the 4th line.

If his name was Buddy Robinson people would be thrilled with that production. Unfortunately the less he produces the lower he goes in the top 12 and fewer chances he gets....He needs to force his way back up the lineup or take advantage of an injury. I hope for his sake he has a well-timed hot streak to help him bust out a bit.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by David Struch

I just don't think Flames fans will be satisfied with a 15-24 point Sam Bennett on the 4th line, (and they'll be calling for his head) This is assuming his production will drop a couple of points (at least) with a couple less minutes per game - if he does indeed end up on the 4th line.

I think it's you that won't be satisfied, which is fine, but why are you projecting this onto "Flames fans"?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Would you not agree though that Bennett is a bust in relation to his draft position?

I don't think a lot of teams go into a draft with a top 5 pick and come away thinking "we got ourselves a good 3rd liner" and are satisfied with that.

Well a lot of arguing in hockey is about terminology and how we use it. In this case you're basically saying a bust = a disappointment. I think that doesn't necessarily follow the classical use which IMO is bust = non-NHLer.

Throwing that aside I think the biggest problem I have with people in this debate is that people are trying to judge Sam Bennett as if he's a fully finished product. Or even worse some people are trying to insinuate that because his offensive numbers have gone down he's on a downward trend that must continue. Both are very problematic views IMO.

Is Sam Bennett a fully developed or finished product? Heck no. This is where him jumping into the league early and going high in the draft hurt him in terms of how fans view him. A lot of fans expect that a top 5 pick will make an early impact and develop quicker than your typical prospect. That often is the case but it is not a rule. Development is linear for some players but other players take steps backwards and forwards in their development. Some argue that because he's regressed he will continue to do so or theres no chance of him taking a big step forward. That is a mistake. Players can stall out for a while and then take a big step forward in their early to mid 20's. It happens all the time.

We've given up on guys older than Bennett in Byron and St. Louis and regretted it. It'd be silly to give up on Bennett now without seeing if he can start to put it together under a better coach. Bennett is a super young player still despite having played multiple years in the league. There's still time for him.

I understand why psychologically people feel let down, burnt, betrayed, etc by the Bennett pick because he was the highest pick of all time. These feelings end up colouring people's view of him. It's unfortunate but I understand why it happens. I just wish people had a bit more patience. Scouts talk about not being able to judge a draft for 5-6 years accurately. That's the kind of timeframe we need to give these young players if they show promise and Sam has shown a heck of a lot of promise. IMO dealing him now makes no sense because he still has a good upside and I don't think we'd be getting strong value back in terms of a trade.

Wish we could just cheer for him to succeed and realize it doesn't happen overnight for every player. We've been spoiled by Monahan/Tkachuk, those players are very exceptional in how fast they stepped in and made a big impact. In comparison Bennett's development looks weak but he still has all the tools to be an impact NHLer. Little bit of confidence and Bennett may suddenly be a nice 2nd line powerwinger with skill and scoring. As is mentioned a lot people were not patient with Backlund either but patience paid off as he developed into a great two-way centre. A little more patience is required for Bennett, he only just turned 22. He's basically still a baby in NHL terms, still a young player.

Go Flames! Go Bennett! Luckily he's not our only hope and we have a ton of offensive depth even if he doesn't develop into a top two line type player. Personally I think he still has a good chance of developing into that over the next 2 years. But yeah at this point we have the depth we don't even need Bennett in particular to break out, one or more of Czarnik, Jankowski, Lindholm is likely to. Mangiapane, Dube and Foo dark horse picks down the line (or maybe even now). Bennett breaking out would be a nice bonus if it happened. We can't we treat it like that?

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Monahan For Mayor

I just think a lot of people have Bennett cemented into their line ups. I see a lot of people saying it's either Dube or Mangipane to take hathaways spot. Which I do agree with. I do however think Mang and or Dube could also be in the running for Bennetts spot. I personally have been just as impressed with those two as I have with Bennett. So why are we saying neither of them can take Bennetts spot ? I think if all 3 of them continue to play good games for the last week of preason they should all make the roster. Dube, Mang, Bennett and even Janko can all share time in the bottom 6 if the two rookies can prove they are ready. Of course if they do get into NHL games and don't look ready then we can send them down. At this point tho I would give them some games to see what they can do. Maybe the last couple of games really puts Bennett on another level then them but I don't see it like that currently.

Neither of them have ever played in the NHL and would probably need to be sheltered. While Dube may be showing some offensive production he doesn't have experience yet with NHL level of play, "he does have speed which will be a great asset!" Personally I would rather have Dube and Bennett on the team than one without the other.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think you're grasping now. He's a third line player making less than third line average money.

He is on the lower end of points on your scale and takes some of, if not the most minors of anyone in a similar spot. In my opinion he is a below average 3rd liner and more realistically a 4th line player. If he can cut his pims in half and maintain 26 points he'll be an effective 3rd liner.

On this flames roster he is a 4th liner.

His 36 point season and on ice shooting percentage last year suggest that if he had the same opportunity this season he's likely be a 35 point player this year.

The fact that Calgary now has some pretty high end depth and he may get pushed to the fourth line doesn't take away from his production history or what he brings.

But that's just it, isn't it? His production declines as the quality of his minutes decline, and his minutes decline because there have been successively better options in the lineup to produce in a per minute basis without penalties. His 18 goal season had him averaging something like a minute more per game on the PP than last year. Does he have any shot of that this year with Calgary's massively improved top 6?

For me, the time to trade Bennett for value has passed, but I am not suggesting waving him. I'm fine with a Bennett who scores 20 points, gets paid sub 2 mil and kills penalties as long as he isn't hurting the team with pims.

If he can't cut the minors he takes in half then I don't know if there is a place for him on the roster, even in a 4th line role. guys nipping at his heels offer the potential for similar offensive production without being down a man.

[jg13]

Dube is going to be a great player

[Monahan For Mayor]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Neither of them have ever played in the NHL and would probably need to be sheltered. While Dube may be showing some offensive production he doesn't have experience yet with NHL level of play, "he does have speed which will be a great asset!" Personally I would rather have Dube and Bennett on the team than one without the other.

Valid concern. I'm just saying the way they are playing this camp they deserve the chance. (Eat Bread and Dube) Both.