2018/2019 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Lots of players have great rookie seasons and then suck. Not sure what you are trying to prove. This is not as rare as you think. GMs pay for potential with young players not based on what they did 3 years ago.

It's okay, you aren't very smart enjoy your Saturday!

I'm not very smart? Oh ok.

You're pretty funny. You thanked my post (bottom page 142), then removed it. Now throwing insults and using emojis while doing so. Well done.

A good day to you too sir.

[868904]

Bennett is not getting waived. If the Flames want to move on, he still has significant value. I think it was Friedman who said that when the Hamilton-Hanifin trade went down, all the other GMs in the league were shocked and praising Tre for making that deal without including Bennett.

Other GMs still see huge potential in Bennett and if Tre put the for sale sign out, he’d have multiple offers.

[shogged]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Lots of players have great rookie seasons and then suck. Not sure what you are trying to prove. This is not as rare as you think. GMs pay for potential with young players not based on what they did 3 years ago.

It's okay, you aren't very smart enjoy your Saturday!

nothing more cringe than trying to win a diffence of opinion by insulting someone’s intelligence lol

[Jiri Hrdina]

I'm not particularly confident in Sam based on my eye tests. I see a guy that perhaps lacks the ability to think the game at the NHL level.
However, the stats do show that he is perhaps better than the basic stats would percent.
I think Bingo has shared some of the advanced stats that show that he is more effective than points would suggest
His shooting percent was also bad last year at 7.0. Worse than Troy Brouwer.
When he scored 18 in 2015/2016 he was at 13.2%
He was 10.7% in 2016/2017
If he had been around 10.5% last year he would have had 16 goals, adding a bit of pop to the bottom 6.
I no longer see a top line forward with him. Which is too bad given projections as a junior and where he was drafted. But if he is a quality third liner that can product high teens in goals and 35-40 points, that's a good asset that can help this team win. This is particularly true if he can continue to add some jam but address the lack of discipline

I find that the views are too binary on this guy.
He is clearly an NHLer in my view, and one that can help this team. Just not the guy we all hoped for. So adjust expectations and evaluate on that basis.

The good news is that moving forward he probably fits the salary structure of the rest of the team, unless he breaks out this year, which would be a nice problem to have.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

There seems to be this running narrative/excuse that Bennett has not progressed due to poor linemates. Bennett actually spent only 5.6% of his time on a line with Brouwer. The majority of his TOI was spent with Jankowski, Hathaway and Jagr. Say what you want about Hathaway as a player but somehow Jankowski was still able to put to put up just 1 less point than Bennett (in 10 less games) while playing with Hathaway and with way less PP time than Bennett had. Bennett has spent more time playing with Johnny and Mony than he has with Brouwer. His lack of production is not the fault of “bad line mates.”

It kind of is. He spent nearly 30% of the year with Hathaway and a rookie centre. When he got to play with a 45 year old man who knew what he was doing, he looked fine.

Jankowksi and Bennett can probably carry Hathaway this year. Last year, Janko hit a wall. Tough to ask Bennett to carry two other people from the left wing of the 3rd line. All while being coached by Glen Gulutzan.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I no longer see a top line forward with him. Which is too bad given projections as a junior and where he was drafted. But if he is a quality third liner that can product high teens in goals and 35-40 points, that's a good asset that can help this team win. This is particularly true if he can continue to add some jam but address the lack of discipline



I find that the views are too binary on this guy.

He is clearly an NHLer in my view, and one that can help this team. Just not the guy we all hoped for. So adjust expectations and evaluate on that basis.

This is exactly what I said too. He’s not close to being waiver wire fodder but expecting him to be anything other than a solid bottom six forward at this point is apparently “impatient.”

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I'm not particularly confident in Sam based on my eye tests. I see a guy that perhaps lacks the ability to think the game at the NHL level.
However, the stats do show that he is perhaps better than the basic stats would percent.
I think Bingo has shared some of the advanced stats that show that he is more effective than points would suggest
His shooting percent was also bad last year at 7.0. Worse than Troy Brouwer.
When he scored 18 in 2015/2016 he was at 13.2%
He was 10.7% in 2016/2017
If he had been around 10.5% last year he would have had 16 goals, adding a bit of pop to the bottom 6.
I no longer see a top line forward with him. Which is too bad given projections as a junior and where he was drafted. But if he is a quality third liner that can product high teens in goals and 35-40 points, that's a good asset that can help this team win. This is particularly true if he can continue to add some jam but address the lack of discipline

I find that the views are too binary on this guy.
He is clearly an NHLer in my view, and one that can help this team. Just not the guy we all hoped for. So adjust expectations and evaluate on that basis.

The good news is that moving forward he probably fits the salary structure of the rest of the team, unless he breaks out this year, which would be a nice problem to have.

I see Sam as a 20-35 point winger, which are are a dime a dozen in this league. We could probably sign any number of players currently available to fill that role. But maybe if another GM still sees that top 6 potential in him he could return something in a trade, which to me is where his real value is. Personally I no longer see any place for Sam in Calgary going forward, he just isn't very good.

[SportsJunky]

I'm with ComixZone on the whole Bennett thing. Let's see how this season plays out for him. I see him as a probable 3rd/4th liner now but I admit I could be totally wrong. He is young so let's sit back and watch. I could see him doing very well with Jankowski and someone like Dube.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

It kind of is. He spent nearly 30% of the year with Hathaway and a rookie centre. When he got to play with a 45 year old man who knew what he was doing, he looked fine.



Jankowksi and Bennett can probably carry Hathaway this year. Last year, Janko hit a wall. Tough to ask Bennett to carry two other people from the left wing of the 3rd line. All while being coached by Glen Gulutzan.

Yet somehow Jankowski was able to play well and would have easily outproduced Bennett if he would’ve played all 82 games, playing with Hathaway. I also wouldn’t call 5 points in the 20 something games he played with Jagr “fine.” I think Jankowski carried both his wingers and could’ve hit somewhere around 20/20 playing with better linemates.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I see Sam as a 20-35 point winger, which are are a dime a dozen in this league. We could probably sign any number of players currently available to fill that role. But maybe if another GM still sees that top 6 potential in him he could return something in a trade, which to me is where his real value is. Personally I no longer see any place for Sam in Calgary going forward, he just isn't very good.

A 30 point forward in the NHL is basically a productive quality third liner.
This is a team that has struggled to find quality bottom 6 forward. So if that type of player, truly is dime a dozen, then why have the Flames struggled to find them? Do they not need guys like that?

The SC winning Washington Capitals had the following
- Their #5 forward by TOI (Tom Wilson) scored 14 goals, 35 points
- Their #6 forward (Lars Eller) scored 18 goals, 38 points
- Their #7 forward (Andrew Burkovsy) scored 12 goals, 25 point (56 games only)
- Their #8 forward (Jakub Vrana) scored 13 goals, 27 points

This is what I mean by the binary thinking. The idea that a 15 goal/30 point Sam Bennett has "no place" in Calgary going forward or isn't very good simply ignores the reality of the NHL.

If he turns into a 20 goal/40 point guy, you have a top 6 forward on your hands. And is he REALLY that far away from that?

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

A 30 point forward in the NHL is basically a productive quality third liner.
This is a team that has struggled to find quality bottom 6 forward. So if that type of player, truly is dime a dozen, then why have the Flames struggled to find them? Do they not need guys like that?

It sure wasn't for lack of trying. Versteeg and Jagr suffered early injuries that basically ended their respective NHL careers, and Troy Brouwer... Well, the less said about him the better. But those were all players who were expected to produce at the same clip as Bennet. And for years prior they did. The Flames have had some abysmal luck (and/or pro scouting) on that front, but other teams seem to find 3rd line wingers every year no problem. 3rd line wingers do not have a lot of value and are not difficult to obtain, and I don't think you will find many people who will disagree with me on that.

The SC winning Washington Capitals had the following
- Their #5 forward by TOI (Tom Wilson) scored 14 goals, 35 points
- Their #6 forward (Lars Eller) scored 18 goals, 38 points
- Their #7 forward (Andrew Burkovsy) scored 12 goals, 25 point (56 games only)
- Their #8 forward (Jakub Vrana) scored 13 goals, 27 points

This is what I mean by the binary thinking. The idea that a 15 goal/30 point Sam Bennett has "no place" in Calgary going forward or isn't very good simply ignores the reality of the NHL.

If he turns into a 20 goal/40 point guy, you have a top 6 forward on your hands. And is he REALLY that far away from that?

Look, I'm not saying 30-35 point players are not good to have. I'm saying that in the case of Sam Bennett you might be able to convince a GM desperate to find some high end skill (Montreal? Ottawa?) that he could be a top 6 forward if given the chance, which he is clearly never going to get here. Maybe you can convince that GM to give you something even more valuable (like a young, promising goaltender), either one-for-one or in a package, than a 3rd line winger you could easily replace with a veteran signing.

[Strange Brew]

Thing is 3rd/4th line players tend not to stay with one team for that long. You generally don’t sign them to long team deals and they are at risk of getting pushed out of the lineup by younger cheaper options.

So if that is indeed what Sam Bennett ends up being, I’m guessing it’s likely he doesn’t spend that much longer in Calgary.

[Saqe]

I said last year that this is Bennett's last chance.



I guess I'll say the same this year

[Flames1217]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Thing is 3rd/4th line players tend not to stay with one team for that long. You generally don’t sign them to long team deals and they are at risk of getting pushed out of the lineup by younger cheaper options.

So if that is indeed what Sam Bennett ends up being, I’m guessing it’s likely he doesn’t spend that much longer in Calgary.

Problem is Bennett is either younger or same age as most of our prospects.

This guy had a 36 point rookie season at 19... Give him time and players to play with and you will see another gear.

People pushing for Foo do not realize hes 2 entire years older.. Bennetts got potential but most of our fans have no patience.

Shiny new toy is always more fun i guess.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by Flames1217

Problem is Bennett is either younger or same age as most of our prospects.



This guy had a 36 point rookie season at 19... Give him time and players to play with and you will see another gear.



People pushing for Foo do not realize hes 2 entire years older.. Bennetts got potential but most of our fans have no patience.



Shiny new toy is always more fun i guess.

You really think 4 years is not enough patience? You think Virtanen still has potential of a top 6 forward? Dal Colle? Fleury? Just show me one example of a player who regressed multiple years following their rookie campaign and still wound up a top line player.

Also age doesn’t equal NHL experience. I give more leeway to an older guy like Foo because he played 3 full years in the NCAA (improving every year) and a full year in the AHL (similar to Jankowski) where as Bennett is going on year 4 in the NHL. We haven’t seen what Foo can do at the NHL level which gives him more potential. Sam has now given us multiple years of underperforming (relative to draft position) at the NHL level.

[RyZ]

Even if Bennett isnt going to post consistent 40+ pt seasons, hes absolutely an everyday NHLer. At his age and the fact that he isnt going to get a huge salary hes exactly the kind of guy you want build your bottom 6 with. Talk of him being possible waiver wire fodder is silly.

[Racki]

Hindsight is always 20/20 but man, how often do you think about young Willy Nylander playing on that right side with Johnny and Monny?

The Leafs coveted Bennett I’m sure, he was the next Doug Gilmour. They probably would have added to swap spots.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

You really think 4 years is not enough patience? You think Virtanen still has potential of a top 6 forward? Dal Colle? Fleury? Just show me one example of a player who regressed multiple years following their rookie campaign and still wound up a top line player.

Backlund's first full year (at 21) he had 25 points in 72 games. He was then awful for the next two years, posting 11 and 16 points respectively. Then he was fine.

Bennett has already played in 144 more games than Backlund at the same age. And that's with missing most of his 18 year old season with shoulder surgery.

I don't think Bennett is a true 1st line player - He seems like a fringe first liner at best, the sort who's well suited to be carried by JG/Monahan.

It's perfectly reasonable to expect him to be at least capable of Kris Versteeg's level of production in his prime. A solid middle-6 winger with a physical edge.

Is it what we wanted from #4 overall? No. Is that Bennett's fault? Also no. I understand wanting more from him. But set aside the draft position. If we have a 2nd-7th round pick putting up 0.37 PPG at age 21 with 244 NHL games, we would not be in a hurry to run him out of town.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Backlund's first full year (at 21) he had 25 points in 72 games. He was then awful for the next two years, posting 11 and 16 points respectively. Then he was fine.



Bennett has already played in 144 more games than Backlund at the same age. And that's with missing most of his 18 year old season with shoulder surgery.



I don't think Bennett is a true 1st line player - He seems like a fringe first liner at best, the sort who's well suited to be carried by JG/Monahan.



It's perfectly reasonable to expect him to be at least capable of Kris Versteeg's level of production in his prime. A solid middle-6 winger with a physical edge.



Is it what we wanted from #4 overall? No. Is that Bennett's fault? Also no. I understand wanting more from him. But set aside the draft position. If we have a 2nd-7th round pick putting up 0.37 PPG at age 21 with 244 NHL games, we would not be in a hurry to run him out of town.

You conveniently ignored the fact that Backlund was often injured following his rookie season. He went from 0.34 -> 0.27 -> 0.50 -> 0.51 points per game. Bit of sophomore slump but he still progressed nicely afterwards. Bennett has gone from 0.47 -> 0.32 -> 0.30 points per game.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

You conveniently ignored the fact that Backlund was often injured following his rookie season. He went from 0.34 -> 0.27 -> 0.50 -> 0.51 points per game. Bit of sophomore slump but he still progressed nicely afterwards. Bennett has gone from 0.47 -> 0.32 -> 0.30 points per game.

I didn't forget anything - Mikael Backlund pre-2012 was not a tremendously effective hockey player.

The NHL is hard. Bennett is 21. He's never going to supplant Monahan. Fine. That had been obvious since Day 1 to some of us.

Can he be a useful middle six forward with skill and a physical edge? Yes. There is no shame in being a 30-40 point forward.

It's not like it's going to be cost prohibitive to keep him.