What is middle class in Calgary?

[puckedoff]

Theres twitch/Youtube streamers, and then everybody else.

[8 Ball]

Originally Posted by blender

You did when you said that concrete forming and framing aren't trades. You are 100% wrong about that and in saying it you are disrespecting the people that do the work. Every building you've ever been in has a foundation and structure that were assembled by a tradesperson. Some buildings are more difficult to build than others and some tradespeople are more skilled than others. Some tradespeople are ticketed, some aren't. Some of the better tradespeople I've worked with aren't.

Your arbitrary and incorrect assertion about what is and isn't a trade is exactly the kind of commentary that is at issue. Your lack of knowledge and your expression of it is contributing to the problem of trades being undervalued in society.

Concrete forming and framing aren't trades. If a carpenter is framing a house, they are not a framer, they are a carpenter that is framing. If they are doing form work they are carpenters who are doing form work. There is no trade that I know of in Alberta called "framer" or "form worker". In fact the vast majority of residential form workers are called cribbers, and that is not a trade either. If your not an indentured apprentice or a certified journeyperson in a government recognized trade, you are not a tradesperson. It's as simple as that. This is not being disrespectful of the jobs they are doing at all. What is disrespectful however is calling a person with no formal technical training at an approved technical training institute a tradesperson. It's disrespectful to those people who payed the tuition, went to school and passed the exams to earn a diploma. A diploma that may leave them liable to legal implications if something goes wrong.
The reason trades are undervalued is because ignorant people think anyone who swings a hammer or twists a wrench must be a tradesperson. A retired police officer can go to court for you and fight a traffic ticket, it doesn't make them a lawyer.

[blender]

Originally Posted by 8 Ball

Concrete forming and framing aren't trades. If a carpenter is framing a house, they are not a framer, they are a carpenter that is framing. If they are doing form work they are carpenters who are doing form work. There is no trade that I know of in Alberta called "framer" or "form worker". In fact the vast majority of residential form workers are called cribbers, and that is not a trade either. If your not an indentured apprentice or a certified journeyperson in a government recognized trade, you are not a tradesperson. It's as simple as that. This is not being disrespectful of the jobs they are doing at all. What is disrespectful however is calling a person with no formal technical training at an approved technical training institute a tradesperson. It's disrespectful to those people who payed the tuition, went to school and passed the exams to earn a diploma. A diploma that may leave them liable to legal implications if something goes wrong.
The reason trades are undervalued is because ignorant people think anyone who swings a hammer or twists a wrench must be a tradesperson. A retired police officer can go to court for you and fight a traffic ticket, it doesn't make them a lawyer.

So wrong. Year 2 of Carpentry school is all concrete forming.
Take a lap, beater.
http://www.itabc.ca/program/carpenter

[8 Ball]

[QUOTE=blender;6775974]So wrong. Year 2 of Carpentry school is all concrete forming.
Take a lap, beater.[/QUOTE

Yes, like I said, some concrete forming is performed by carpenters. The crew that formed my my front steps and sidewalk were not carpenters. The crew that formed my sisters basement were not carpenters. Take a lap, beater? Sorry I thought you were an adult.

[Fuzz]

I think we need a ven diagram.

[blender]

[QUOTE=8 Ball;6775991]

Originally Posted by blender

So wrong. Year 2 of Carpentry school is all concrete forming.
Take a lap, beater.[/QUOTE

Yes, like I said, some concrete forming is performed by carpenters. The crew that formed my my front steps and sidewalk were not carpenters. The crew that formed my sisters basement were not carpenters. Take a lap, beater? Sorry I thought you were an adult.

Maybe we are just arguing semantics, but I feel like you are being very obtuse. Concrete forming and wood framing are separate disciplines of the trade recognized as carpentry.
I'm not sure what the issue is. There are ticketed Carpenters who make large salaries doing nothing but concrete forming.

Also, edit to apologize for crass comment. Uncalled for.

[Ducay]

Typical bunch of lap beaters, you bunch of blue collar hosers!

[8 Ball]

[QUOTE=blender;6776006]

Originally Posted by 8 Ball

Maybe we are just arguing semantics, but I feel like you are being very obtuse. Concrete forming and wood framing are separate disciplines of the trade recognized as carpentry.
I'm not sure what the issue is. There are ticketed Carpenters who make large salaries doing nothing but concrete forming.

Also, edit to apologize for crass comment. Uncalled for.

You are the one being obtuse. Carpentry is a recognized trade. I agree that framing and concrete forming are part of the discipline, I'm not arguing that. However there are people who form concrete and frame houses that are not carpenters. They are not tradespeople. Perhaps you think I'm dumping on Carpenters for whatever reason, but I'm not, I'm defending them. I'm not disrespecting people who do their job and pay taxes. Look up trade secrets.alberta.ca they have a list of what qualifies as a trade in Alberta.

[Slava]

[QUOTE=8 Ball;6776117]

Originally Posted by blender

You are the one being obtuse. Carpentry is a recognized trade. I agree that framing and concrete forming are part of the discipline, I'm not arguing that. However there are people who form concrete and frame houses that are not carpenters. They are not tradespeople. Perhaps you think I'm dumping on Carpenters for whatever reason, but I'm not, I'm defending them. I'm not disrespecting people who do their job and pay taxes. Look up trade secrets.alberta.ca they have a list of what qualifies as a trade in Alberta.

I sympathize with trades people for this exact reason. You have journeyman carpenters/plumbers/etc. and then you have some guy with tools and a truck who also says he’s a carpenter/plumber/etc. but hasn’t got the ticket. We run into the exact same thing in finance, and it drives me up the wall.

I don’t know the solution. You can’t just hold yourself out as a lawyer despite having an office and some yellow legal pads, and you can’t just declare yourself to be a doctor because you took some anatomy and have internet access, nonetheless that’s basically the equivalent.

[GordonBlue]

I guess you could say a cribber plies a trade, but isn't a tradesman.
same thing as my youth. I was a line cook and a pretty good one, but I would have never called myself a chef. sure I did many of the same things, but there was a significant difference.
the only time I called myself a chef was in the bar trying to pick up girls. funny how saying you're a line cook doesn't get you as far. heh

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Slava

I sympathize with trades people for this exact reason. You have journeyman carpenters/plumbers/etc. and then you have some guy with tools and a truck who also says he’s a carpenter/plumber/etc. but hasn’t got the ticket. We run into the exact same thing in finance, and it drives me up the wall.

I don’t know the solution. You can’t just hold yourself out as a lawyer despite having an office and some yellow legal pads, and you can’t just declare yourself to be a doctor because you took some anatomy and have internet access, nonetheless that’s basically the equivalent.

Lawyer, Doctor, Engineer are all self regulated professions defined by government acts which define the use of those titles. The question is how far should these types of protections exist because they act as rent seeking and create barriers to employment.

APEGAs method of recognizing foreign trained engineers leaves a lot to be desired and hurts peoples ability to work. So you need a very good public safety defense if you are going to restrict titles and scopes of practice for people without a designation.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by GGG

Lawyer, Doctor, Engineer are all self regulated professions defined by government acts which define the use of those titles. The question is how far should these types of protections exist because they act as rent seeking and create barriers to employment.

APEGAs method of recognizing foreign trained engineers leaves a lot to be desired and hurts peoples ability to work. So you need a very good public safety defense if you are going to restrict titles and scopes of practice for people without a designation.

Right and I understand that. But if you don't protect these titles and ensure some qualifications for these professions then you can have other consequences. I'll use mine as an example here, where people with far less for qualifications are literally handling peoples life savings; it's pretty important! Same goes for a lot of the trades. I want my house to be constructed by people with proper qualifications, and that's not really optional.

[troutman]

I have so many yellow pads.

[GP_Matt]

Am I out of line to circle back to the original question because I have found the answer?

If your family income is $194,000 or greater you are no longer middle class. This has been defined by our current Prime Minister.

When he revised the Canada Child Benefit he said it would benefit the middle class. If you make $194,000 with one child then you no longer qualify for the CCB and are therefore no longer middle class.

[GP_Matt]

To the current topic, I spent four years cribbing basements in Calgary and never considered myself a trades-person. 90% of the time, I really liked that job although it is definitely hard on the body and not a job I would want to have in the second half of my career.

[jammies]

Anyone who doesn't think white-collar looks down on blue-collar hasn't been in the Edmonton = No Good threads.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by troutman

I have so many yellow pads.

See, my methodology works!