What is middle class in Calgary?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by slots881

Wow

Is he wrong? You don't think there's a big difference in how guys speak on a rig and how the project managers and payroll people at head office talk? That's just another element of class - how you speak, your social norms, demeanour.

[slots881]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Is he wrong? You don't think there's a big difference in how guys speak on a rig and how the project managers and payroll people at head office talk? That's just another element of class - how you speak, your social norms, demeanour.

So, because of my 'decorum ', I now can't speak properly?
Just because you throw on a suit and sit at a desk doesn't
Automatically mean you are a better communicator.
Way to fuel the stereotype though.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Is he wrong? You don't think there's a big difference in how guys speak on a rig and how the project managers and payroll people at head office talk? That's just another element of class - how you speak, your social norms, demeanour.

As someone who has worked in both situations you would be surprised on how similar they are.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by Weitz

As someone who has worked in both situations you would be surprised on how similar they are.

For the most part, I agree. I meet with anyone from rig people to investment bankers for my career and I'd say they're not all that different in language generally. The biggest potty mouth I've ever seen was a banker actually. I anecdotally find the field supervisor types to be generally reserved and speak in a very measured manner.

[Kybosh]

I think the stigma against trades has a lot to do with how hard some trades are on the body. Traditionally, if you were wealthy, you could avoid back breaking labour and live a easier life. I'd say that trades are still harder on the body than white collar jobs (which also have their negatives however - like lots of sitting and staring at a screen), and a lot of parents aren't encouraging their kids to take on what they perceive to be a harder job which might break their bodies over time.

[opendoor]

Yeah I'm not sure why people are surprised that jobs in trades aren't more popular or encouraged by parents. They can be great and lucrative careers for the right people, but the fact of the matter is they can also be hard on the body, often require you to work in an uncomfortable environment (out in the elements or in confined spaces), are dangerous at times, usually require you to work in the middle of nowhere if you want to earn top dollar, are generally more subject to suffering during economic downturns than a lot of other jobs, and if you ever suffer any kind of serious injury or end up with any kind of disability your career is potentially over.

And a lot of the work is pretty mind numbing to be honest, at least in construction which is what I'm most familiar with. Building stuff start to finish like a shed, garage, or even a house can be fun, but that's not really how it works for most trades. If you work in a commercial or industrial setting you're more likely to be installing concrete forms for 6 months or pulling kilometers of wire. And if you do work in residential you're more likely to be throwing up one cookie cutter house after another and having to deal with the extremely cavalier attitude towards safety that usually exists on residential sites.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

I think the stigma against trades has a lot to do with how hard some trades are on the body. Traditionally, if you were wealthy, you could avoid back breaking labour and live a easier life. I'd say that trades are still harder on the body than white collar jobs (which also have their negatives however - like lots of sitting and staring at a screen), and a lot of parents aren't encouraging their kids to take on what they perceive to be a harder job which might break their bodies over time.

Sitting in an office all day isn't all that great for you either. But yes, some trades can be very hard on you. I wouldn't want to be a carpet layer, or a tiler, personally. I've done both, and my tender office bod doesn't take it well.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

In the UK, you're barely even really considered middle-class if you're an engineer, because of the association with dirtying your hands with machinery. Certainly not in the same social class as a barrister or banker.

The move to making everything a 4-year university degree isn't just a legacy of the past - it's still ongoing. Was there any need for Mount Royal College to scrap it's practical 2-year diploma programs and become a university? It's more prestigious for administration and professors. But now students have to spend double the time and money to get a degree. And as someone who has hired people with the both the 2-year diplomas and the 4-year degrees that replaced them, the graduates are no better qualified for the job. In some cases they're worse, because they have a more general education.

As an alumni, every time MRU comes calling for a contribution I tell them the same thing: You've doubled the cost of my kids' education (assuming they go there). I would have happily made a donation if you were still a college. But not now.

I think it's interesting how different countries hold different opinions of different professions.

One example: my wife is an Irish-Canadian dual citizen. The form for her passport had a list of acceptable witnesses. Lawyer, doctor, etc were on there. Engineer wasn't, but bank manager was.

I'm an engineer by profession so I'm not unbiased here, but I would say here an engineer earns more money and has greater social status than a bank manager.

For my own kids, I would encourage them to pick a career with some decision making involved. Anything where you're just following an exact set of instructions (which includes some blue collar and white collar jobs) is going to be boring, and is more likely to get replaced by technology.

[8 Ball]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Yeah I'm not sure why people are surprised that jobs in trades aren't more popular or encouraged by parents. They can be great and lucrative careers for the right people, but the fact of the matter is they can also be hard on the body, often require you to work in an uncomfortable environment (out in the elements or in confined spaces), are dangerous at times, usually require you to work in the middle of nowhere if you want to earn top dollar, are generally more subject to suffering during economic downturns than a lot of other jobs, and if you ever suffer any kind of serious injury or end up with any kind of disability your career is potentially over.

And a lot of the work is pretty mind numbing to be honest, at least in construction which is what I'm most familiar with. Building stuff start to finish like a shed, garage, or even a house can be fun, but that's not really how it works for most trades. If you work in a commercial or industrial setting you're more likely to be installing concrete forms for 6 months or pulling kilometers of wire. And if you do work in residential you're more likely to be throwing up one cookie cutter house after another and having to deal with the extremely cavalier attitude towards safety that usually exists on residential sites.

The reason some parents don't encourage their kids to go into the trades are because of the misconceptions that surround them. Concrete form work and residential framing aren't trades. Trades are government certified. They are highly skilled and technically trained people. They are people who take an apprenticeship, and go through years of hands on training and months of class theory in a technical institute. Once you pass your final exams, you become a journeyman/person. This is not easy. These people have very well paying jobs, and if they are decent at there trade, will move up the ladder and off the tools. Not to mention the fact, it is very rare for a tradesperson to pay someone to work on their car, house, boat etc. We barter amongst ourselves. I have been paying into RESP's for both my daughters since they were born. Both do well in school. If they choose university, good on them. If they choose the trades, my heart would swell. The trades desperately need more females.

[The Yen Man]

I give tradespeople all the credit in the world. Having seen an expert welder at work, the cleanliness of the guys welds were almost a work of art. It takes serious skill to be good at a trades job.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

I give tradespeople all the credit in the world. Having seen an expert welder at work, the cleanliness of the guys welds were almost a work of art. It takes serious skill to be good at a trades job.

This. The unfortunate thing is a lot of people refuse to pay for quality and then make their judgement on the "cheap" people. Which if you take a look at any industry you could find terrible people.

I had a friend doing some work on his house and he got 5 quotes, including from someone I know who is very well regarded in their field. Well he went with the cheapest quote (think 40% less than the mean of the other 4 quotes) and had nothing but issues and complaints and shoddy workmanship. Then they complained and complained and complained. Well you get what you pay for.

[blender]

Originally Posted by 8 Ball

The reason some parents don't encourage their kids to go into the trades are because of the misconceptions that surround them. Concrete form work and residential framing aren't trades. Trades are government certified. They are highly skilled and technically trained people. They are people who take an apprenticeship, and go through years of hands on training and months of class theory in a technical institute. Once you pass your final exams, you become a journeyman/person. This is not easy. These people have very well paying jobs, and if they are decent at there trade, will move up the ladder and off the tools. Not to mention the fact, it is very rare for a tradesperson to pay someone to work on their car, house, boat etc. We barter amongst ourselves. I have been paying into RESP's for both my daughters since they were born. Both do well in school. If they choose university, good on them. If they choose the trades, my heart would swell. The trades desperately need more females.

It's called carpentry, and yes, it is a trade.
Not everyone practicing it is necessarily ticketed, but please don't disrespect the work.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

For the most part, I agree. I meet with anyone from rig people to investment bankers for my career and I'd say they're not all that different in language generally. The biggest potty mouth I've ever seen was a banker actually. I anecdotally find the field supervisor types to be generally reserved and speak in a very measured manner.

Investment bankers and traders are a unique & small minority of the white collar jobs though, and these are fields which seem to attract a highly disproportionate quantity of chest thumping males vying to be the alpha in a hockey locker room environment. I think if you looked at the average white collar vs. average blue worker, the known stereotypes exist for a reason.

Anecdotally I've worked white and blue collar summer jobs, and as an average, there certainly was a stark contrast in vocabulary and dialogue content. The blue collar guys would talk about getting rolled by a hooker over the weekend or how they beat the tar out of their neighbor because they stole his car. The white collar dialogue was so much more mundane stuff like a sale on fence posts at home depot or attending their kids Christmas pageant.

I recognize neither side can be painted 100% with one brush and there is overlap, but you can't deny that in general, there are cultural differences tied to the socioeconomic statuses that blue & white collar occupations are inextricably linked to.

[PsYcNeT]

There's obviously a huge disparity even among the various levels of blue-collar work. Even on the average jobsite, you're likely going to have a different conversation with a tin basher than an electrician.

[Erick Estrada]

Being a plumber isn't a glamorous job but my neighbour is making out like gangbusters running his own van. Owns a summer house on the lake, multiple new vehicles, etc.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

There's obviously a huge disparity even among the various levels of blue-collar work. Even on the average jobsite, you're likely going to have a different conversation with a tin basher than an electrician.

This is exactly it. No one was saying that their aren't people who would be considered "lower class" on a construction site. We've all met the classic Canadian "hoser" who does menial labour jobs. And it's true you don't find many of these guys spewing racism or bragging about hookers in their strong Canadian accents in the average office environment. Part of what makes Dean and Terry from FUBAR funny is that we've all met guys who are very similar to them.

Also, Many tradesmen don't work on construction sites. At any site you're going to see a combination of skilled labour and unskilled labour. The unskilled labour is less likely to have solid education, come from a nurturing environment, or be good at pursuing their goals. That's a big part of why they are stuck in labour jobs.

The point is that it's now probably easier to live an upper middle class lifestyle in the trades than with a degree. Many of the people who do trades are also far more intelligent and skilled than the average paper pusher. Plus many have to learn to run their own businesses, which requires a skill set in its own. No one is saying that all labourers on construction sites are middle class or higher.

I guess could make the argument that tradespeople get more exposure and are more likely to work with "lower class" people. However, lawyers, doctors, social workers, teachers, etc.. also deal with people from all walks of life in their daily routine.

[NuclearFart]

To be honest, I'm not sure I even know exactly where the distinction between white and blue lies. I don't think manual labor vs office job, tech school vs. university, or Oxford dictionary vocabulary vs coprolalia etc. covers it.

What is the guy in IT who builds servers and desktop computers? What about that mechanic at Tunerworks who sits in a office most of the day procuring parts? A child development daycare worker?

I suppose this supports the assertion that this is a very anachronistic debate.

[8 Ball]

Originally Posted by blender

It's called carpentry, and yes, it is a trade.
Not everyone practicing it is necessarily ticketed, but please don't disrespect the work.

I didn't disrespect the work.

[blender]

Originally Posted by 8 Ball

I didn't disrespect the work.

You did when you said that concrete forming and framing aren't trades. You are 100% wrong about that and in saying it you are disrespecting the people that do the work. Every building you've ever been in has a foundation and structure that were assembled by a tradesperson. Some buildings are more difficult to build than others and some tradespeople are more skilled than others. Some tradespeople are ticketed, some aren't. Some of the better tradespeople I've worked with aren't.

Your arbitrary and incorrect assertion about what is and isn't a trade is exactly the kind of commentary that is at issue. Your lack of knowledge and your expression of it is contributing to the problem of trades being undervalued in society.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

To be honest, I'm not sure I even know exactly where the distinction between white and blue lies. I don't think manual labor vs office job, tech school vs. university, or Oxford dictionary vocabulary vs coprolalia etc. covers it.

What is the guy in IT who builds servers and desktop computers? What about that mechanic at Tunerworks who sits in a office most of the day procuring parts? A child development daycare worker?

I suppose this supports the assertion that this is a very anachronistic debate.

White collar vs Blue collar in the traditional sense is now pretty meaningless. When 85% of people were still farmers I'm sure being a clerk at a bank was a relatively prestigious position. There weren't that many white collar jobs to be had because most of the population didn't use their services.

With the shifting of the economy due to technology, demand for white collar services has exploded. Telecommunications companies are some of the biggest businesses in the world and I would assume only a small fraction of their employees are the blue collar installers, but almost all the jobs they provide are pretty low paying.

White collar "labour" jobs have exploded.

We would be better off talking now about high value jobs versus low value jobs.

Anything that requires high skill, extensive training, or is remote/undesirable has the potential to be a high value job.

I think more and more we are seeing that blue collar vs white collar doesn't matter as long as you are in the top 5-10% of earners in any field of work.