Chrismas trees removed in Sea-Tac airport

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Well, first of all, we're not talking about signs. We're talking about ornamental displays. So you're saying you're ok with having 1000 displays to represent every ethnicity and religion? ok...

And even if we're talking about signs, you're ok with displaying 1000 signs? ok...

Yup.

Some ethnicities will demand equal time and space. I know the chinese will be super ****ed if their "Gong Xi Fa Chai" isn't equal or greater to the Merry Christmas display or sign.

Everyone gets a 14 pt. two line sign in Verdana text. New policy.

Also, airport signs are only meant for common languages spoken around the world. I don't see "hak kah," or "chiu chau" on it. Are you saying they should include those?

I don't see why not. How much extra time or effort could it take to find out how to say "Welcome" in those languages. The Toronto Transit Commission advertises 70 languages on a poster and they had room for more.
(we are in the nit-picking stage here)

maybe I'm a bit slow today, but I have no idea what you're talking about here or how it relates to what we're talking about.

An example of one company compramising with a client and the unwanted slippery slope that followed.

I don't know. I don't work at the EUB.

So your friend told you they handled it internally but s/he didn't tell you what the solution was? If you speak with him/her in the near futiure I would be interested to know what they did.

In malaysia, the ethnic groups are the forefathers that founded the country. You need to know a bit of history about malaysia to understand why things are the way they are.

Also, I was born and raised there. I can guarantee you asking them will do nothing...and if you persist, you will land yourself in jail for being a public nuisance.

Fair enough, but that is in Malaysia. In Canada or the USA I would think that the courts (if it ever got that far) would side with the minority on this one.

Can't comment here. I know little about the Jewish culture.

No worries, just a tongue-in-cheek comment.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Yup.



Everyone gets a 14 pt. two line sign in Verdana text. New policy.



I don't see why not. How much extra time or effort could it take to find out how to say "Welcome" in those languages. The Toronto Transit Commission advertises 70 languages on a poster and they had room for more.
(we are in the nit-picking stage here)





An example of one company compramising with a client and the unwanted slippery slope that followed.





So your friend told you they handled it internally but s/he didn't tell you what the solution was? If you speak with him/her in the near futiure I would be interested to know what they did.




Fair enough, but that is in Malaysia. In Canada or the USA I would think that the courts (if it ever got that far) would side with the minority on this one.

No worries, just a tongue-in-cheek comment.

It was a passing question to my friend that I saw last night, since I know he works for the government.


It's all cool. I honestly do see where you come from. I am a minority myself.

I'll let just the topic die here. No sense in going any further into it. I believe what needs to be said has been said, and both point of views have been shared adaquetly IMO.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

It was a passing question to my friend that I saw last night, since I know he works for the government.


It's all cool. I honestly do see where you come from. I am a minority myself.

I'll let just the topic die here. No sense in going any further into it. I believe what needs to be said has been said, and both point of views have been shared adaquetly IMO.

Cheers.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by AnthonyCook

Especially strange considering Christmas really has nothing to do with religion.

It was a pagan holiday, taken over by Christianity.

It's not even the day Jesus was born.

Are you kidding me? Christmas has everything to do with religion.

Pagan holiday originally? True, also irrelevant.

Not the day Jesus was born, also true but irrelevant.

We don't know when Jesus was born. It doesn't matter. Christmas is the time when Christians celebrate Jesus's birth. Date and the origin of the celebration are totally irrelevant.

Nothing to do with religion. What an absurd comment.

[MarchHare]

Are you kidding me? Christmas has everything to do with religion.

[...]

Nothing to do with religion. What an absurd comment.

Whether you want to admit it or not, in most Western nations, Christmas is just as much or moreso a secular cultural holiday as it is a religious one. I know MANY non-Christians (myself included) who celebrate Christmas as a winter festival (snowmen, lights, decorated trees, gifts, peace on earth and goodwill to all men...that kind of thing) with no religious overtones at all.

In terms of what decorations are appropriate in a public area, I think most reasonable people don't have a problem with non-religious symbols like trees, wreaths, lights, etc., but putting up a manger scene or angels and shephards and wise men or whatever is crossing the line, especially if it's publicly-funded.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Whether you want to admit it or not, in most Western nations, Christmas is just as much or moreso a secular cultural holiday as it is a religious one. I know MANY non-Christians (myself included) who celebrate Christmas as a winter festival (snowmen, lights, decorated trees, gifts, peace on earth and goodwill to all men...that kind of thing) with no religious overtones at all.

In terms of what decorations are appropriate in a public area, I think most reasonable people don't have a problem with non-religious symbols like trees, wreaths, lights, etc., but putting up a manger scene or angels and shephards and wise men or whatever is crossing the line, especially if it's publicly-funded.

Says who? The fact that Christmas has evolved to involve most people doesn't take away the fact that it was started out of a Christian event.

It's ok to give gifts, which symbolizes the three wise men but it is not ok to put up the wise men?

By no means is it crossing the line.

[MagicallyAdept]

Bleeding Red - Sorry mate if i p*ssed you off.

OK, i may to apologise for saying people should just suck it up and i wasn't calling anyone here a #####wit - just the jobsworths who always find something to complain about. You are right though we should have other decorations up that relate to other faiths, more decorations just make things look better. The more the merrier. It is better to have too many decorations that to have none at all. This is a time of the year to have fun and spend time with friends and family for everyone in Canada/US/UK, it shouldn't be spend bickering. Lets all have fun eh? What would annoy me is that if there was decorations and celebrations to celebrate all faiths someone would still find that the Christmas tree was bigger than the tree represting the Jedi religion. Lets add some more chanukiaks and dreidels. Hanukah has been celebrated in the west for a long time too i agree but Christianity is the largest religion and has the most history in the west so we should all resepct that. Yes we should accept and celebrate other faiths but Christmas is of huge importance in the west and should be treated that way.

The biggest problem stems from the fact that everyone gets treated equally (what most of us want to see). A christmas tree goes up and a jewish people want a chanukiaks so that goes up too. Then the muslim wants something from his religion so that gets put up too. Then the Native American wants something so that gets added. After everyone gets their faith represented someone finds out that the christmas tree costs the most money so everyone else wants more cost on their faith. So i can understand why some places just do nothing. So much easier.

We should all get together in a huge field, take a sh*t load of psychoactive drugs and then all the problems would be solved. *Joke*

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by MagicallyAdept

What would annoy me is that if there was decorations and celebrations to celebrate all faiths someone would still find that the Christmas tree was bigger than the tree represting the Jedi religion.......The biggest problem stems from the fact that everyone gets treated equally (what most of us want to see). A christmas tree goes up and a jewish people want a chanukiaks so that goes up too. Then the muslim wants something from his religion so that gets put up too. Then the Native American wants something so that gets added. After everyone gets their faith represented someone finds out that the christmas tree costs the most money so everyone else wants more cost on their faith. So i can understand why some places just do nothing. So much easier.

There are two different issues - 1) recognition & representation of different traditions, and 2) EQUAL recognition & representation of different traditions.

The first is easy enough - include a reasonable symbol of the different tradition in the display. It is also reasonable to do this on a case by case basis - If the Samoan does not request a symbol you do not have to put one up. (if the Samoan wants a symbol on another day, fine. Municipalities are always declaring special days for different groups).

The second issues becomes UNreasonable and therefore easily refuted. The institution can prove that they made the effort, were inclusive, spent some money and to ask for more is unreasonable. Persistance in this case makes the 'complainer' a jerk and s/he should lose at every level.

An example of an unreasonable solution to isse #1 that leads to issue #2 conflicts is if the airport put a 1 inch dreidel on a side table in a far off corner where there is no pedestrian traffic.

Christianity is the largest religion and has the most history in the west so we should all resepct that. Yes we should accept and celebrate other faiths but Christmas is of huge importance in the west and should be treated that way.

Not to be flipant, but to some here who celebrate it Christmas is equivilant to Mother's day or July 1.

It is questionable which has the most history. Hannukah has been celebrated in the west the same way for centuries - the only modification was moving the chanukiah (candleabra) away from the front window (to avoid having rocks thrown through them). According to some, the way Christmas has been celebrated has changed over the last few hundred years.

It's importance to "The West" is only in economic terms. "The West" needs to promote the consumerism of the season. If we stopped buying gifts and feeling good in late Nov. Dec. how many retailers would go out of business?
It's importance to the Faith has been put into question by some posters on the board. Is it or is it not a religious holiday or is it Mother's day?

Sorry for the long post, and I know that many are tiring of the debate. I also know that most are spouting off at what they perceive as people who find fault in everything. In the case of the Airport please try to consider that the Rabbi initially was not complaining or offended but that he simply asked the manager of the AIrport if his group could erect a large chanukiah outside the Airport and the reply was harsh, leading to an extreme response.

Removing all decorations, appeasing complainers, minority rules are all cop outs on the issues. Adding a symbol with a kind reasonable explination as to cost and size (we could only afford to get a small chanukiah and it fits in with our display) or adding my 'seasonal greetings' in my language to the wall so those in line could try to read it are solutions.

[MagicallyAdept]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

There are two different issues - 1) recognition & representation of different traditions, and 2) EQUAL recognition & representation of different traditions.

The first is easy enough - include a reasonable symbol of the different tradition in the display. It is also reasonable to do this on a case by case basis - If the Samoan does not request a symbol you do not have to put one up. (if the Samoan wants a symbol on another day, fine. Municipalities are always declaring special days for different groups).

The second issues becomes UNreasonable and therefore easily refuted. The institution can prove that they made the effort, were inclusive, spent some money and to ask for more is unreasonable. Persistance in this case makes the 'complainer' a jerk and s/he should lose at every level.

An example of an unreasonable solution to isse #1 that leads to issue #2 conflicts is if the airport put a 1 inch dreidel on a side table in a far off corner where there is no pedestrian traffic.





Not to be flipant, but to some here who celebrate it Christmas is equivilant to Mother's day or July 1.

It is questionable which has the most history. Hannukah has been celebrated in the west the same way for centuries - the only modification was moving the chanukiah (candleabra) away from the front window (to avoid having rocks thrown through them). According to some, the way Christmas has been celebrated has changed over the last few hundred years.

It's importance to "The West" is only in economic terms. "The West" needs to promote the consumerism of the season. If we stopped buying gifts and feeling good in late Nov. Dec. how many retailers would go out of business?
It's importance to the Faith has been put into question by some posters on the board. Is it or is it not a religious holiday or is it Mother's day?

Sorry for the long post, and I know that many are tiring of the debate. I also know that most are spouting off at what they perceive as people who find fault in everything. In the case of the Airport please try to consider that the Rabbi initially was not complaining or offended but that he simply asked the manager of the AIrport if his group could erect a large chanukiah outside the Airport and the reply was harsh, leading to an extreme response.

Removing all decorations, appeasing complainers, minority rules are all cop outs on the issues. Adding a symbol with a kind reasonable explination as to cost and size (we could only afford to get a small chanukiah and it fits in with our display) or adding my 'seasonal greetings' in my language to the wall so those in line could try to read it are solutions.

A good idea would be to have a committee that will say right we are having a meeting on this date to plan this seasons decorations. Then everyone can have their say about where things go and what goes up.

But then its another committee and another meeting and it gets so beauracratic (spelling?)

Want to get a beer and talk about the hockey instead mate?

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by MagicallyAdept

A good idea would be to have a committee that will say right we are having a meeting on this date to plan this seasons decorations. Then everyone can have their say about where things go and what goes up.

But then its another committee and another meeting and it gets so beauracratic (spelling?)

Want to get a beer and talk about the hockey instead mate?

Cheers

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

There are two different issues - 1) recognition & representation of different traditions, and 2) EQUAL recognition & representation of different traditions.

Since 70% of the people are Christian....does that mean that the Jewish ornament should be about 1% of the size of the Christian decorations? That would be equal.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Since 70% of the people are Christian....does that mean that the Jewish ornament should be about 1% of the size of the Christian decorations? That would be equal.

Equal, not proportional!!!!

But, again, as I noted, this is an issue where the argument can easily become UNreasonable.

Adding a dreidel display (representative of the holiday) on a table in the general display shows recognition of the holiday by the displayer.

Having a nine foot chanukiah for every nine foot tree and blue & white holly for every foot of green & red holly is an attempt to equal representation and, in my opinion UNreasonable. However a hardly visable 1/70th scale decoration can be construed as Unreasonable recognition (even an insult) and only adds gas to the fire.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Equal, not proportional!!!!

But, again, as I noted, this is an issue where the argument can easily become UNreasonable.

Adding a dreidel display (representative of the holiday) on a table in the general display shows recognition of the holiday by the displayer.

Having a nine foot chanukiah for every nine foot tree and blue & white holly for every foot of green & red holly is an attempt to equal representation and, in my opinion UNreasonable. However a hardly visable 1/70th scale decoration can be construed as Unreasonable recognition (even an insult) and only adds gas to the fire.

You (to use a long time CP phrase) have, literally, made baby Jesus cry.

Suck the life right out of the meaning of the season...well done.

Where's my yamaka?

Maybe we should applaud while all those fir trees burn down during the summer "brush" fires? Makes things easier doesn't it?

It's easy to understand if you really choose to...

This is North America.....majority Christian without question.....majority uses Christmas trees to celebrate....not just Jesus B'day, but the spirit of the season. You have a problem with that....good for you.


Everyone capitulate.......to whatever the minority requests, because that matters more than what the rest actually want and do.

CHRISTmas will never be the same again....the whiners won't let it.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by transplant99

You (to use a long time CP phrase) have, literally, made baby Jesus cry.

Suck the life right out of the meaning of the season...well done.

Where's my yamaka?

Maybe we should applaud while all those fir trees burn down during the summer "brush" fires? Makes things easier doesn't it?

Isn't the meaning of the season 'Peace and goodwill toward all Men' (People)?

Notice the peacful goodwill gesture on the TV show 'HOUSE'. If you saw last Teusday's episode you saw the 'seasonal festive tree' being decorated with a couple of ornaments dipicting Hanukah symbols (a chanukiah and a star-of-david). That seemed a pretty reasonable goodwill gesture to me - wish the airport guy would have thought of that.

CHRISTmas will never be the same again....the whiners won't let it.

To some here Christmas hasn't been the same for many years - secularism and consumerism have trampled it into near meaninglessness.