What is middle class in Calgary?

[Sliver]

Okay, yeah I get what you guys are saying now. I was thinking you were saying it was an overt thing like pointing and laughing at a guy.

I think it's really an insignificant minority that does this, though. I'll show up somewhere with steel toes, shorts, t-shirt, hat and a tape measure to do my work and I've never had anybody make me feel lesser-than. If somebody did have that attitude toward me, I would definitely consider it more of a reflection on them than me.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Yes, really. Maybe it's because I don't hang around with a-holes? I've never had anyone disparage blue collar workers in my circle.

I don't know. I consider the police blue collar workers and we have dedicated threads here were they are disparaged.

[Fuzz]

They are disparaged for being crappy at their job though, not becuase they chose that job.

[PsYcNeT]

Yeah I don't think I've seen any headlines about the plumber's union excusing a group of rogue tradesmen kidnapping and assaulting their clients.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

They are disparaged for being crappy at their job though, not becuase they chose that job.

The "Lets talk about the Calgary police service" thread went exactly a year without being bumped then one incident happens and it's the same garbage. Nobody ever bumps it to commend them in between so if they are never patted on the back and only disparaged I would say they are largely disparaged no? And lets not pretend there aren't a lot of comments about people that want to be on power trips enrolling with law enforcement as there's general contempt for them by many posters here as is clear in the thread. You can move the goal posts but it is what it is.

[GirlySports]

You should hang around girls more. In my circle of friends (esp those who had education drilled into their heads), they would never date or be friends with blue-collared guys, or girls. They really look down on them.

as sliver said, that's a reflection that those girls are bitches, not a reflection on the guy.

and before you all say it, yes I need better friends.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by blankall

It's more of an implicit thing, where the attitude is that if you don't have a degree from a university you're not fully developed, so you'd better get one and anyone who doesn't is lesser.

I do think that attitude is changing though, as many tradesmen these days are fairly sophisticated business people.

Many high net worth owner-managers that financial advisors, lawyers, accountants and other multiple postsecondary degree holding professionals in Alberta rely on as clients come from skilled trades, ranching and farming, and many of them have net worths that senior partners and executives would be envious of.

It's a ridiculous mentality that a menial white collar job done by someone with a useless liberal arts degree is somehow superior to skilled blue collar work done by someone with certifications and diplomas.

[Northendzone]

my brother in laws wife was going off on blue collar workers one day infront my my father and mother in law.

my father in law was a mechanic by trade and eventually moved into a shop foreman role. all he did with his measely education was put both of his kids thru university, and ensure they had lots of opportunities in their lives to prusue things like hockey, skating. He also built his house as well.

i lost a lot of respect for the BIL's wife when I heard about that.

Getting a journeyman's certificate in any trade requires time and studying and it can be an enjoyable career.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Many high net worth owner-managers that financial advisors, lawyers, accountants and other multiple postsecondary degree holding professionals in Alberta rely on as clients come from skilled trades, ranching and farming, and many of them have net worths that senior partners and executives would be envious of.

It's a ridiculous mentality that a menial white collar job done by someone with a useless liberal arts degree is somehow superior to skilled blue collar work done by someone with certifications and diplomas.

yup, but unfortunately it's a lot of the dating scene now.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

yup, but unfortunately it's a lot of the dating scene now.

I don't think it matters too much if it's a part of the dating scene. I don't think a blue collar person would have to worry about being ignored by somebody who isn't attracted to blue collar people because the feeling would be reciprocal. You're not going to want to be with someone who has prejudices against a group to which you belong. It would be like a black person bemoaning that no KKK members want to date them - it's just not a concern.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

my brother in laws wife was going off on blue collar workers one day infront my my father and mother in law.

my father in law was a mechanic by trade and eventually moved into a shop foreman role. all he did with his measely education was put both of his kids thru university, and ensure they had lots of opportunities in their lives to prusue things like hockey, skating. He also built his house as well.

i lost a lot of respect for the BIL's wife when I heard about that.

Getting a journeyman's certificate in any trade requires time and studying and it can be an enjoyable career.

It's interesting how society is changing. At one point a parent sacrificed their life to a blue collar job so their children could have more. Now if you want more, you are often better off in a "blue collar" job.
'
The process of children moving away from requiring a university degree and entering the trades is changing naturally on its own. Without government involvement - and arguably the government has been pushing policies that promote university for a long time, including excessive funding of universities - the process has been very slow.

Canada is in many ways stuck in the old British ideas of what is proper and class. I think we're slowly seeing a move away with that, which includes the loosening of our liquor laws. Everything seems to happen at a snails pace here though.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by blankall

Canada is in many ways stuck in the old British ideas of what is proper and class.

In the UK, you're barely even really considered middle-class if you're an engineer, because of the association with dirtying your hands with machinery. Certainly not in the same social class as a barrister or banker.

The move to making everything a 4-year university degree isn't just a legacy of the past - it's still ongoing. Was there any need for Mount Royal College to scrap it's practical 2-year diploma programs and become a university? It's more prestigious for administration and professors. But now students have to spend double the time and money to get a degree. And as someone who has hired people with the both the 2-year diplomas and the 4-year degrees that replaced them, the graduates are no better qualified for the job. In some cases they're worse, because they have a more general education.

As an alumni, every time MRU comes calling for a contribution I tell them the same thing: You've doubled the cost of my kids' education (assuming they go there). I would have happily made a donation if you were still a college. But not now.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

As an alumni, every time MRU comes calling for a contribution I tell them the same thing: You've doubled the cost of my kids' education (assuming they go there). I would have happily made a donation if you were still a college. But not now.

I'm sure the telemarketer takes that message straight to the Dean.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

In the UK, you're barely even really considered 'middle-class' if you're an engineer, because of the association with dirtying your hands with machinery. Certainly not in the same social class as a barrister or banker.

The move to making everything a 4-year university degree isn't just a legacy of the past - it's still ongoing. Was there any need for Mount Royal College to scrap it's practical 2-year diploma programs and become a university? It's more prestigious for administration and professors. But now students have to spend double the time and money to get a degree. And as someone who has hired people with the both the 2-year diplomas and the 4-year degrees that replaced them, the graduates are no better qualified for the job. In some cases they're worse, because they have a more general education.

As an alumni, every time MRU comes calling for a contribution I tell them the same thing: You've doubled the cost of my kids' education (assuming they go there). I would have happily made a donation if you were still a college. But not now.

The whole university system is such a racket....and the worst part is the taxpayer is paying the bill.

Universities get huge amounts of funding from the government. They take on way too many students and stuff lecture halls full of students taking useless degrees. They change the course materials and textbooks every 2-3 years, so students have to pay for brand new textbooks.

The newest scam is paid online subscriptions to electronic materials...The whole thing is so absurd.

When I look back on some of my undergrad classes, it's absolutely laughable. A lecture hall full of 500 students. Each one of them has paid for the course plus about $200 in materials and books. Half the profs could care less about what they are doing and are there solely out of obligation.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

In the UK, you're barely even really considered 'middle-class' if you're an engineer, because of the association with dirtying your hands with machinery. Certainly not in the same social class as a barrister or banker.

The move to making everything a 4-year university degree isn't just a legacy of the past - it's still ongoing. Was there any need for Mount Royal College to scrap it's practical 2-year diploma programs and become a university? It's more prestigious for administration and professors. But now students have to spend double the time and money to get a degree. And as someone who has hired people with the both the 2-year diplomas and the 4-year degrees that replaced them, the graduates are no better qualified for the job. In some cases they're worse, because they have a more general education.

As an alumni, every time MRU comes calling for a contribution I tell them the same thing: You've doubled the cost of my kids' education (assuming they go there). I would have happily made a donation if you were still a college. But not now.

It's a bit of a tangent of course, but why do people donate to their alma mater? I get calls from mine and I just feel like there are many other worthy causes for me to give donations to. I paid for my education and kind of feel like that was enough money for the school, but maybe I'm missing something?

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Is that a thing? Do people actually do that?

As others have mentioned, it's not an overt thing like Nelson pointing and going HAHA every time they see a blue collar worker. It's more the mentality of looking down on blue collar for no reason.

"Stay in school or look like those guys."
"I wouldn't date a blue collar"
"A blue collar guy is a guy who probably couldn't pass his classes in school and had to settle being a janitor."
"Blue collar people are generally uneducated"

etc.

Until the craft brewery scene started growing here, I even used to hear people say that beer was a blue collar drink, not like wine and spirits which were more sophisticated.

Some people are weird, but sometimes I noticed some of those making the loudest statements are those that actually came from a family heavily soaked in the blue collar background... like they're ashamed their roots are from small town Alberta or Saskatchewan or something.

[Wormius]

I would only donate if I could get something named after me. I don't have enough money though, so I could probably only afford to dedicate a urinal cake or a chair leg.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Slava

It's a bit of a tangent of course, but why do people donate to their alma mater? I get calls from mine and I just feel like there are many other worthy causes for me to give donations to. I paid for my education and kind of feel like that was enough money for the school, but maybe I'm missing something?

Yeah, I find that bizarre, too. You're a business...why TF would I donate money to you?

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Slava

It's a bit of a tangent of course, but why do people donate to their alma mater? I get calls from mine and I just feel like there are many other worthy causes for me to give donations to. I paid for my education and kind of feel like that was enough money for the school, but maybe I'm missing something?

Donation receipt, prestige and perhaps they think education is a worthy cause?

But I get what you mean, I think Canada is different since the level of one school to another isn't insane. In the USA for instance, it fluctuates much more. In that situation, those donations help keep them competitive. Here... not as much.

[CliffFletcher]

If there's an institution ripe for technological disruption, it's post-secondary education. Since about ten years ago, back when my kids were born, I've been reading about the educational flip, where those 500 student halls will be replaced by students watching lectures at home on their laptops, and they would come to campus for tutorials and collaborative work with other students. The pedagogical model is there. The technology is there. It would be far cheaper. I figured a new system might well be in place by the time my kids when to university.

But it's looking that was a fantasy. The institutions themselves are fiercely opposing fundamental reforms to what is essentially a 19th century approach to education - professors standing in halls reading out of books. And the reason half the professors don't want to be there is because they're interested in research, not teaching. Why the two are still so tightly linked is one of those baffling anachronisms that makes the system so frustrating.

Does anyone really believe that if we invented post-secondary education from scratch today, using today's technology and designed to meet the needs of today's workplace, it would anything remotely like what we have now?

It's funny how consumer/voter price sensitivity about the cost of everything from hotels to snow removal to TVs to houses can influence the market and politics, often massively. But everyone behaves as though the relentlessly rising cost of post-secondary education is something we simply have to endure, that it's out of our hands and we just have to accept it.

Fuzz is exactly right that it's a racket.