Drinking to go the way of smoking

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Major Major

It's not interesting or a parallel, and you answered your question in the first part of your post.

Drinking is social. It is a social lubricant and I'd take the over on 50.5% of calgary puck members existing because of it. It is fun and hilarious to do with your friends, and one of the best and easiest ways to meet new people.

Also, it is not addictive in the same way. The day after your 24/7 benders with your buddies, none of you are going home to get hammered by yourself the next day. Some people have problems, granted, and I'm glad there are supports out there for those people, but the level of addiction is not the same.

Well sorry but I think there is a pretty strong parallel. The fact that it's easier to get laid when you drink doesn't change the like for like health effects that both smoking and drinking have. And it's absolutely addictive.

I find drinking fun but I do think the health effects have not been as socially enforced as smoking, probably to a lot of people's detriment.

[burn_this_city]

Alcohol having been around for thousands of years is far more ingrained in the culture, than smoking which really only took off 200 years ago. Heavy drinking, detrimental to the individual is generally frowned upon by society. I could see a general trend towards drinking less happen, as people become more health conscious, but it won't be viewed quite the same way as smoking.

[CaptainCrunch]

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

As usual the media spin on the story is unreliable at best. Yes any level of alcohol consumption has risks associated with it. But at low/moderate levels (a drink or two a day) those risks are very low, much lower than smoking. There's a big difference risk-wise between having a glass of wine every day and being a smoker.

Maybe you (and others) can help interpret some of the alcohol and cancer correlation research. Some below:

https://monographs.iarc.fr/iarc-mono...-to-humans-25/

I'm a bit skeptical at calling it 'causation' when they only have case-control and cohort studies. The authors justify it because of the quality and volume of these studies, but don't we need RCTs to push it beyond correlation?

As you mentioned, even a small amount carries some risk. I suppose you have to draw the line somewhere.

I think Cliff has a point, though (as facetious as he's seemingly being). When it was first established that smoking is bad the reaction was much similar. It was ingrained in our society to smoke, anything against it was ridiculous. But slowly things changed and here we are.

I wonder about similarities in how the craft beer industry is exploding and what the cigarette industry was like at its peak.

I've definitely thought about my 1-4 weekend beers and my binge drinking every 2 months.

Edit: and what other hints do you need that it's bad for you when you feel like absolute garbage when you do too much of it.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Peanut

make canada great again!!!!

Make Canada Drunk Again

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Maybe you (and others) can help interpret some of the alcohol and cancer correlation research. Some below:

https://monographs.iarc.fr/iarc-mono...-to-humans-25/

I'm a bit skeptical at calling it 'causation' when they only have case-control and cohort studies. The authors justify it because of the quality and volume of these studies, but don't we need RCTs to push it beyond correlation?

As you mentioned, even a small amount carries some risk. I suppose you have to draw the line somewhere.

I think Cliff has a point, though (as facetious as he's seemingly being). When it was first established that smoking is bad the reaction was much similar. It was ingrained in our society to smoke, anything against it was ridiculous. But slowly things changed and here we are.

I wonder about similarities in how the craft beer industry is exploding and what the cigarette industry was like at its peak.

I've definitely thought about my 1-4 weekend beers and my binge drinking every 2 months.

Edit: and what other hints do you need that it's bad for you when you feel like absolute garbage when you do too much of it.

There are multiple lines of evidence to demonstrate causation - not just the epidemiological studies but animal studies and mechanistic evidence (though that may be limited to people with a particular genetic trait or very heavy drinkers).


Lots of things are confirmed human carcinogens without actually causing cancer in many people though - often the level of exposure has to be really high. The other aspect is that low level exposures to carcinogens in general is not as well understood as high level exposures, and the models used to predict cancer from low level exposures are likely flawed. For many carcinogens, at low levels of exposure most people might not be at risk at all, even though the theoretical models say there is some low level of risk. Still there are some people who have a genetic susceptibility to carcinogenicity to alcohol.


Regardless, the actual chance of getting cancer from 1 drink per day is really low. You also have low chances of getting cancer from lots of other things we do and things we eat, including going outside and living in cities. At the end of the day you can't eliminate all cancer risk (or other types of risk - every time you get in your car you are at risk of dying). What you can do is make decisions that balance very low levels of risk against benefits to you, including enjoyment of life.


Heavy alcohol consumption is a completely different story, where your ability to metabolize alcohol is more likely to be insufficient to prevent risk (not only cancer but other effects) in addition to things like the consequences of drunk driving, which have effects on others.

[Amethyst]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

But I think Cliff brings up an interesting parallel, is smoking all that different to drinking? They're both harmful, addictive, can give you cancer as well as a plethora of other health conditions...I have a hard time seeing how they're any different, except somehow tobacco companies have been completely vilified and alcohol just keeps trucking along.

The main difference I see is that alcohol affects the person consuming it, while smoking affects those around the smoker. If someone is beside me, drinking alcohol all night, I can leave and there is no last effect. If someone is beside me, smoking all night, I consume second hand smoke and go home smelling of smoke.

The addictive properties are also different. Pretty much everyone who takes up smoking becomes addicted to it. Not everyone who takes up drinking becomes addicted to alcohol.

[opendoor]

Yeah, if everyone who drank alcohol was a raging alcoholic who needed to pound back 20+ drinks a day in all situations then it might be akin to smoking. But without that the comparison falls flat.

[Bunk]

Occasional drinking - good for your mental health, however.

[jammies]

It's ok, I'll just smoke pot instead.

[Northendzone]

So this one study is the definitive study of all studies?

What about the other studies that have suggested that a glass of 12 yr old sherry is good for you. Or that a glass of red wine on Thursday will help ward off something or other?

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

There are multiple lines of evidence to demonstrate causation - not just the epidemiological studies but animal studies and mechanistic evidence (though that may be limited to people with a particular genetic trait or very heavy drinkers).


Lots of things are confirmed human carcinogens without actually causing cancer in many people though - often the level of exposure has to be really high. The other aspect is that low level exposures to carcinogens in general is not as well understood as high level exposures, and the models used to predict cancer from low level exposures are likely flawed. For many carcinogens, at low levels of exposure most people might not be at risk at all, even though the theoretical models say there is some low level of risk. Still there are some people who have a genetic susceptibility to carcinogenicity to alcohol.


Regardless, the actual chance of getting cancer from 1 drink per day is really low. You also have low chances of getting cancer from lots of other things we do and things we eat, including going outside and living in cities. At the end of the day you can't eliminate all cancer risk (or other types of risk - every time you get in your car you are at risk of dying). What you can do is make decisions that balance very low levels of risk against benefits to you, including enjoyment of life.


Heavy alcohol consumption is a completely different story, where your ability to metabolize alcohol is more likely to be insufficient to prevent risk (not only cancer but other effects) in addition to things like the consequences of drunk driving, which have effects on others.

This is exactly what I mean. Seems like they should clarify that high levels of alcohol consumption (and define what high is) cause cancer in most people, rather than say alcohol causes cancer. That's where we get some of this sensationalist behavior from.

You make a good point as existing itself causes cancer.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by MRCboicgy

I'll drink to that.

Cheers!

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Major Major

The day after your 24/7 benders with your buddies, none of you are going home to get hammered by yourself the next day.

The stories CP members could tell about their famous benders

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

So this one study is the definitive study of all studies?

More or less, yes. It's a meta-analysis of nearly 1300 studies over the last 3 decades.

[pseudoreality]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

So this one study is the definitive study of all studies?

What about the other studies that have suggested that a glass of 12 yr old sherry is good for you. Or that a glass of red wine on Thursday will help ward off something or other?

From what I've read, there is criticism that studies showing a benefit of low to moderate alcohol consumption that there were not corrected for social-economic factors. The health risks associated with high alcohol consumption are well documented.

Personally, in the last few years, I've come to the realization that it is not good to have one beer after work every day. So I'm making an effort to reduce my overall consumption. My new rule is I have to take a day off for every drink I have. So if I have a beer, I need two days off, if I have two, its two days off, etc. Drinking three drinks at one time is now less than 3 or 4 times a year and more than three drinks are like once or twice a year. Long gone are the foolish days of my youth where I would drink excessive amounts of alcohol. It's expensive and bad for you, and oh yeah, demographics?

[CliffFletcher]

Many things we take for granted today will be regarded as offensive in 30 years, and vice versa. Even a supremely enlightened creature like ResAlien, if he steps out of a time machine in 2048, will be regarded as a backward yokel.

Originally Posted by ResAlien

I’d like to also mention how awesome it was to throw in that beautifully crafted touch of xenophobia there at the end. Those pesky immigrants infiltrating North America, insidiously changing our way of life. What happened to the Canada we once knew? What will it take to return to the great White north of time past?

I like how you instinctively take the most uncharitable interpretation of any comment, and are eager to put people into the bigot box. I guess it's easier to paint a tidy caricature than to address the actual points people make.

If you read the study, you'd note that only a third of the people in the world drink at all. As regional variations get smoothed over by globalization, North America will come to be more like the rest of the world (as will China, Brazil, etc.). That's not xenophobic - barring a technological collapse, cultural homogenization is an inevitability.

There are also generational trends at work. Alcohol consumption in Canada peaked in 1978-79. Younger Canadians are drinking less than their counterparts did even 15 years ago.

In 2013, an estimated 22 million Canadians 15 or older, or about 76 per cent of the population, reported drinking in the previous year, the report says. That's a three per cent drop from 2004, when 79 per cent reported drinking.

According to the report, the drop in drinking is even more apparent in young Canadians, aged 15 to 24. Among this group, the percentage who reported drinking in the last year went from 78 per cent in 2004 to 73 per cent in 2013.

And those figures are for people who drank at all in the last year. The number of people who drink with any regularity is significantly lower. Governments are already able to relentlessly increase alcohol taxes without much pushback. They will show even less restraint once fewer than half of Canadians drink regularly.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Amethyst

The main difference I see is that alcohol affects the person consuming it, while smoking affects those around the smoker. If someone is beside me, drinking alcohol all night, I can leave and there is no last effect. If someone is beside me, smoking all night, I consume second hand smoke and go home smelling of smoke.

I guess that's why there's much less opposition to vaping than to smoking. Oh wait.

The fact vaping changed nothing in attitudes towards smoking proves that the second-hand smoke thing is no longer (if it ever was) the real driver of anti-smoking attitudes. It's a moral crusade.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by pseudoreality

Personally, in the last few years, I've come to the realization that it is not good to have one beer after work every day. So I'm making an effort to reduce my overall consumption. My new rule is I have to take a day off for every drink I have. So if I have a beer, I need two days off, if I have two, its two days off, etc. Drinking three drinks at one time is now less than 3 or 4 times a year and more than three drinks are like once or twice a year. Long gone are the foolish days of my youth where I would drink excessive amounts of alcohol. It's expensive and bad for you, and oh yeah, demographics?

This is a great way to do it! Those binge nights would get a deserving few weeks off afterwards.

[GGG]

We are legalizing marijuana and deregulating alcohol. We have always known that moderate drinking was bad. The trend line is in the opposite direction.