Chrismas trees removed in Sea-Tac airport

[V]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

The government (regardless of which level) is supposed to represent everybody. They should not be exclusive to anybody. By displaying decorations in their public spaces that are clearly of a "Christmas time theme" they exclude me. By refusing to acknowledge and consider my concern they dismiss me. That is where the problem is.

And if they have any decorations at all they offend and completely dismiss the feelings and 'beliefs' of the atheists. You just can't please everyone everywhere. So go with the majority.

To say that they are generic decorations of the season is a justification of the included to the excluded, Like the single black member of a one time whites only golf club - he can get a drink at the bar, but he drinks alone - included but excluded at the same time.

Christmas decorations have absolutely zero to do with human rights. There is just no correlation. So everytime you bring up whites and blacks, or women voting it just makes me laugh. There's no valid argument there.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Some people just don't understand the logistical complications of appeasing all religions. I wonder what we would do if we ran a business, agency, or organization that has ties to the government, and we were threatened with legal action.

Most government agencies will see this as a burden. They will simply take down the tree in the name of appeasement. This solves 2 problems.

They won't get sued
They won't have to waste man hours doing research.

I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

And no, the workers that took down the tree and put it back up are just the maintenance crew for the airport. Suggesting that those wasted man hours can be put to good use by doing research is simply impossible and costly.

- There are 193 countries.
- There are hundreds, if not thousands of religions and cultures.
- Example. In Malaysia alone, there are FOUR major holidays for each ethnic group. THREE of them are around the winter season. That's only ONE country.

So if ONE person complains, you have to cater to this person.

It's not difficult to see why the airport chose to take the trees down.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken

And if they have any decorations at all they offend and completely dismiss the feelings and 'beliefs' of the atheists. You just can't please everyone everywhere. So go with the majority.

If, as some say, the decorations have nothing to do with religion and are just secular ornaments for the festive season, which athiest belief/tradition/request is being dismissed?

Christmas decorations have absolutely zero to do with human rights. There is just no correlation. So everytime you bring up whites and blacks, or women voting it just makes me laugh. There's no valid argument there.

So we can then bring prayer back into the schools, all religious schools can be publically funded..etc.

religious harasment, sexual harassment, I can see the thin loose thread that may connect the two.

[Burninator]

/\

Exactly. Instead of exclusion of one religion for another, they are simply removing all for the inclusion of none. They have the choice to appease all by spending more money and more time to only travel down a path that will have no end of pleasing everyone. It is much easier for all these companies/governments to just take it all down so they don't offend or make anyone fell left out. And this really is a shame.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Some people just don't understand the logistical complications of appeasing all religions. I wonder what we would do if we ran a business, agency, or organization that has ties to the government, and we were threatened with legal action.

Well, the Ontario Legislature chooses to allow a chanukiah to be placed on thier property. The Cities of Toronto, Vaughan & Markahm all allow a chanukiah on their grounds.

I would tell the Rabbi that I could not have a huge set-up in my business. Is there an alternative?

Companies get complaints or requests or threats of lawsuits everyday - the difference is how they approch them - eith with a compramise or a dismissal. Compramise gets you goodwill, dismissal lands your firm on CBC'c 'Underdogs' or the local news' consumer watchdog show or international negative attention.

Most government agencies will see this as a burden. They will simply take down the tree in the name of appeasement. This solves 2 problems.

They won't get sued
They won't have to waste man hours doing research.

I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

No, they will bump it up to the Multiculturalism offices for an answer.

And no, the workers that took down the tree and put it back up are just the maintenance crew for the airport. Suggesting that those wasted man hours can be put to good use by doing research is simply impossible and costly.

These are the typs of jobs given to assistants (PR, media, VP-operations). Paying that person's salary anyway may as well put them to work. No one is saying they or any other firm should be hiring a culteral liasion.

- There are 193 countries.
- There are hundreds, if not thousands of religions and cultures.
- Example. In Malaysia alone, there are FOUR major holidays for each ethnic group. THREE of them are around the winter season. That's only ONE country.

And I bet the Malaysia government puts up decorations for all of them in their public building.

So if ONE person complains, you have to cater to this person.

It's not difficult to see why the airport chose to take the trees down.

They didn't have to bow to his every whim.."We cannot put up such a large structure, is there an alternative?"

[MagicallyAdept]

Originally Posted by Burninator

/\

Exactly. Instead of exclusion of one religion for another, they are simply removing all for the inclusion of none. They have the choice to appease all by spending more money and more time to only travel down a path that will have no end of pleasing everyone. It is much easier for all these companies/governments to just take it all down so they don't offend or make anyone fell left out. And this really is a shame.

You are right, it is a shame. And what they are doing is the easiest option for them. What they should do is just tell the offended people to suck it up and deal with it. Most western countries have celebrated Christmas for the last 1500-400 years so its tradition. We are changing the way we live and the future of our history/heritage/culture for the sake of a few #####wits who are unwilling to share a time of joy. How can you get offended by a tree anyway??

In Dubai, a muslim country there are christmas trees averywhere, fake snow, huge displays about Jesus and the nativity, giant statues of Santa, reindeers pulling sleighs on the roof etc and no on over there complains. When i go to a muslim country and there is an event where i have to respect their faith i do, like not drinking alcohol during some months. I just have to deal with it as it is their culture and their tradition so i MUST respect it. So should people in Canada/USA/UK who don't like Christmas.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Burninator

/\

Exactly. Instead of exclusion of one religion for another, they are simply removing all for the inclusion of none. They have the choice to appease all by spending more money and more time to only travel down a path that will have no end of pleasing everyone. It is much easier for all these companies/governments to just take it all down so they don't offend or make anyone fell left out. And this really is a shame.

Just because it is easier doesn't mean it is the way it should be.

Nothing prevents them from acting on a case by case basis.

Also, as I have noted before, I believe this is really a case of respect. Did the Airport manager respectfully explain that they could not have such a structure inside nor outside the building? Did he respectfully ask about an alternative? If so and then the Rabbi threatened a lawsuit, then the Rabbi is clearly in the wrong. But if the Airport replyed with a 'nope, won't do it, Christmas decorations only here', then the issue became one of respect where the airport was in the wrong.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by MagicallyAdept

You are right, it is a shame. And what they are doing is the easiest option for them. What they should do is just tell the offended people to suck it up and deal with it. Most western countries have celebrated Christmas for the last 1500-400 years so its tradition. (Hanukah has been celebrated in most western countries for just as long, if not longer) We are changing the way we live and the future of our history/heritage/culture for the sake of a few #####wits who are unwilling to share a time of joy. How can you get offended by a tree anyway??

These (we) few #####wits are just trying to share and enjoy this festive time also. Why don't we take down all the Christmas/winter festive decorations and put up a whole bunch of chanukiaks and dreidels? they are just a pleasing to people as trees. No one has asked you to change the way you live for alter the future of our culture?!?! Next you will be saying that the debate over the use of multi-coloured lights or solid single coloured lights on houses will bring down western civilization as we know it.

We are not offended that these decorations are up, we are upset that we are exluded by the reluctance to put up what we see as our decoration too.

In Dubai, a muslim country there are christmas trees averywhere, fake snow, huge displays about Jesus and the nativity, giant statues of Santa, reindeers pulling sleighs on the roof etc and no on over there complains. When i go to a muslim country and there is an event where i have to respect their faith i do, like not drinking alcohol during some months. I just have to deal with it as it is their culture and their tradition so i MUST respect it. So should people in Canada/USA/UK who don't like Christmas.

And it is great that Dubai (unlike some Canadians, it seems) is willing to graciously accomodate the different ethnicities within their boarders. (I will likely never see it as I am not allowed to enter their country)

So, even though I was born, raised and am a third generation Canadian/Calgarian I should be happy to be a second class citizen in my own country? Just suck it up and suffer? The majority way or the highway? No comprimise, No peace?

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Just because it is easier doesn't mean it is the way it should be.

Nothing prevents them from acting on a case by case basis.

Also, as I have noted before, I believe this is really a case of respect. Did the Airport manager respectfully explain that they could not have such a structure inside nor outside the building? Did he respectfully ask about an alternative? If so and then the Rabbi threatened a lawsuit, then the Rabbi is clearly in the wrong. But if the Airport replyed with a 'nope, won't do it, Christmas decorations only here', then the issue became one of respect where the airport was in the wrong.

I DEMAND HAVING A FESTIVUS POLE SET UP!!!!111one
i'll sue if city hall does not comply! respect my tradition!!!!eleven

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Well, the Ontario Legislature chooses to allow a chanukiah to be placed on thier property. The Cities of Toronto, Vaughan & Markahm all allow a chanukiah on their grounds.

Oh yes, I can see it now. Once they get a flood of requests, I'm sure they'll be accomodating to that. I can see it now. Happy Losar to the Tibetans, happy Lunar new year to the Koreans, happy Hari Raya to the Malays.

Don't think it's possible? it's only a matter of time.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I would tell the Rabbi that I could not have a huge set-up in my business. Is there an alternative?

Good question. I'd like to know as well. There seem to be only 2. Keep it or lose it.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Companies get complaints or requests or threats of lawsuits everyday - the difference is how they approch them - eith with a compramise or a dismissal. Compramise gets you goodwill, dismissal lands your firm on CBC'c 'Underdogs' or the local news' consumer watchdog show or international negative attention.

Compromise will undoubtedly earn you good will. I do not doubt that. But what comes after the compromise might be a little bit much to handle.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

No, they will bump it up to the Multiculturalism offices for an answer.

They will? Site your source please. I just spoke to a friend, who is a government HR person at the Energy Utility Board here in downtown calgary. He says it's handled internally. So no multiculturalism offices.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

These are the typs of jobs given to assistants (PR, media, VP-operations). Paying that person's salary anyway may as well put them to work. No one is saying they or any other firm should be hiring a culteral liasion.

Who is to say they didn't do an exhaustive research on the issue. Seems to me the officials at the airport discussed it and decided it is not feasible.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

And I bet the Malaysia government puts up decorations for all of them in their public building.

The only reason why this is true is because the 4 groups are major ethnic groups. They have been involved and working with each other since gaining independence from the british. The main languages in Malaysia are English, Chinese, Malay, and Tamil.

Try asking them to put up any other religious symbol and see how well that gets received.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

They didn't have to bow to his every whim.."We cannot put up such a large structure, is there an alternative?"

Agreed, but we will never know how the conversations took place. However, I believe that no matter how badly it ended, the end result (Legal action) is extreme beyond words.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Happy Losar to the Tibetans, happy Lunar new year to the Koreans, happy Hari Raya to the Malays.

you left out my holiday tradition you insensitive clod.
INCLUDE FESTIVUS OR BE SUED!!!!

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

you left out my holiday tradition you insensitive clod.
INCLUDE FESTIVUS OR BE SUED!!!!

LOL. I'm not sure that giant festivus pole is feasible.

[Phaneuf3]

you sir, will be hearing from my lawyers.... good day!

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Oh yes, I can see it now. Once they get a flood of requests, I'm sure they'll be accomodating to that. I can see it now. Happy Losar to the Tibetans, happy Lunar new year to the Koreans, happy Hari Raya to the Malays.

Don't think it's possible? it's only a matter of time.

Bank branches put up those kinds of signs all the time. How is this a bad thing? Airports have welcome signs in many different languages, who researched those? If someone coming to Canada can't speak English then they should go home.

Good question. I'd like to know as well. There seem to be only 2. Keep it or lose it.

The compramise could have easily been a 6-inch electric candleabra, supplied by the Rabbi, placed on a table in the public area.

Next ethnicity please.

Compromise will undoubtedly earn you good will. I do not doubt that. But what comes after the compromise might be a little bit much to handle.

Yet many firms do handle the 'bit much' afterwards. eg - at a Raptors game (NBA) they handed out thunder sticks to the kids. My kid broke his. We went looking for a new one, were told they were out, but the guest services gave my kid a toy. She then had to give a toy to the four whining kids who just happened to be walking by. They delt with it.

They will? Site your source please. I just spoke to a friend, who is a government HR person at the Energy Utility Board here in downtown calgary. He says it's handled internally. So no multiculturalism offices.

No source, just an off the cuff remark on large union operated governments. What was the internal solution?

Who is to say they didn't do an exhaustive research on the issue. Seems to me the officials at the airport discussed it and decided it is not feasible.

I would think that that would be a pretty important point for the media to leave out - "The Airport tried to work something out and researched a possible solution" - I do not think the Airport would want the media skipping that point.

Not mentioned, likely never happened.

The only reason why this is true is because the 4 groups are major ethnic groups. They have been involved and working with each other since gaining independence from the british. The main languages in Malaysia are English, Chinese, Malay, and Tamil.

Try asking them to put up any other religious symbol and see how well that gets received.

I'd say Jews were a major ethnic group in Canada, if not population wise then influence wise - note mayors of two major cities, many leaders in business, legal, medical professions, builders of Canada, etc..

I'd ask them anyway and see what happens.

Agreed, but we will never know how the conversations took place. However, I believe that no matter how badly it ended, the end result (Legal action) is extreme beyond words.

Many disputes in the US end with the threat of legal action, I venture to say that such a threat is embedded in their culture (which is also likely the Jews fault - can't beat'em in the alley, beat'em in court for costs and pain & suffering!! ) O would think that that is how many arguments about respect end there.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by MagicallyAdept

When i go to a muslim country and there is an event where i have to respect their faith i do, like not drinking alcohol during some months. I just have to deal with it as it is their culture and their tradition so i MUST respect it. So should people in Canada/USA/UK who don't like Christmas.

first, let me be clear that I have no problem with X-mas trees, or Christmas. I love it.

But, people should not have to follow Christian traditions here just because Christians are the majority.

Canada/USA/UK are not Christian countries. You can't compare them to Muslim countries because they are secular.

Going to a religious country, and following religious traditions makes sense.
Going to a non-religious country and having to follow religious traditions does not make sense.

Do you see the difference?

Your issue should actually be with the seperation of church and state, which is clearly something you're not in favour of.
It's your democratic right to push for a country under Christian rule, but until you have it, people in the UK/Canada/US shouldn't have to follow Christain anything.
They simple have the choice.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

first, let me be clear that I have no problem with X-mas trees, or Christmas. I love it.

But, people should not have to follow Christian traditions here just because Christians are the majority.

Canada/USA/UK are not Christian countries. You can't compare them to Muslim countries because they are secular.

Going to a religious country, and respecting follow religious traditions makes sense.
Going to a non-religious country and having to follow religious traditions does not make sense.

Do you see the difference?

Your issue should actually be with the seperation of church and state, which is clearly something you're not in favour of.
It's your democratic right to push for a country under Christian rule, but until you have it, people in the UK/Canada/US shouldn't have to follow Christain anything.
They simple have the choice.

ok first off - christmas the way it is celebrated by most people and the way it is marketed by companies and deceorated for by airlines and such has nothing to do with religion. NONE. there is a celebration that christians have at the same time, but this has nothing to do with christmas trees.

secondly, simply by walking past a christmas tree does not mean you are celebrating christmas or following any traditions... religious or not.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Bank branches put up those kinds of signs all the time. How is this a bad thing? Airports have welcome signs in many different languages, who researched those? If someone coming to Canada can't speak English then they should go home.

The compramise could have easily been a 6-inch electric candleabra, supplied by the Rabbi, placed on a table in the public area.

Next ethnicity please.

Well, first of all, we're not talking about signs. We're talking about ornamental displays. So you're saying you're ok with having 1000 displays to represent every ethnicity and religion? ok...

And even if we're talking about signs, you're ok with displaying 1000 signs? ok...

Some ethnicities will demand equal time and space. I know the chinese will be super ****ed if their "Gong Xi Fa Chai" isn't equal or greater to the Merry Christmas display or sign.

Also, airport signs are only meant for common languages spoken around the world. I don't see "hak kah," or "chiu chau" on it. Are you saying they should include those?

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Yet many firms do handle the 'bit much' afterwards. eg - at a Raptors game (NBA) they handed out thunder sticks to the kids. My kid broke his. We went looking for a new one, were told they were out, but the guest services gave my kid a toy. She then had to give a toy to the four whining kids who just happened to be walking by. They delt with it.

maybe I'm a bit slow today, but I have no idea what you're talking about here or how it relates to what we're talking about.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

No source, just an off the cuff remark on large union operated governments. What was the internal solution?

I don't know. I don't work at the EUB.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I would think that that would be a pretty important point for the media to leave out - "The Airport tried to work something out and researched a possible solution" - I do not think the Airport would want the media skipping that point.

Not mentioned, likely never happened.

Possible. Who knows. Cant' comment too much about this one.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I'd say Jews were a major ethnic group in Canada, if not population wise then influence wise - note mayors of two major cities, many leaders in business, legal, medical professions, builders of Canada, etc..

I'd ask them anyway and see what happens..

In malaysia, the ethnic groups are the forefathers that founded the country. You need to know a bit of history about malaysia to understand why things are the way they are.

Also, I was born and raised there. I can guarantee you asking them will do nothing...and if you persist, you will land yourself in jail for being a public nuisance.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Many disputes in the US end with the threat of legal action, I venture to say that such a threat is embedded in their culture (which is also likely the Jews fault - can't beat'em in the alley, beat'em in court for costs and pain & suffering!! ) O would think that that is how many arguments about respect end there.

Can't comment here. I know little about the Jewish culture.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

ok first off - christmas the way it is celebrated by most people and the way it is marketed by companies and deceorated for by airlines and such has nothing to do with religion. NONE. there is a celebration that christians have at the same time, but this has nothing to do with christmas trees.

So...Christmas is the equivilant of Mother's day?
It is just on a larger scale because it involves presents for everyone, not just Dear old Mom? And everyone, regardless of race, religion or ethnicity celebrates it?

Christians celebrate their own holiday around this time, but it is not Christmas and has nothing to do with Christmas trees?

secondly, simply by walking past a christmas tree does not mean you are not celebrating christmas or following any traditions... religious or not.

Not sure about this sentance....but I think you are trying to tell me that walking past a Chirstmas tree does not turn me into a Christian?

Fair enough, but adding a small chanukiah to the display won't bring down western civilisation as we know it either.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

ok first off - christmas the way it is celebrated by most people and the way it is marketed by companies and deceorated for by airlines and such has nothing to do with religion. NONE. there is a celebration that christians have at the same time, but this has nothing to do with christmas trees.

secondly, simply by walking past a christmas tree does not mean you are celebrating christmas or following any traditions... religious or not.

No kidding, I agree completly.
did you read the first line of what you quoted... it said
"first, let me be clear that I have no problem with X-mas trees, or Christmas. I love it."

You're misunderstanding my post.

My issue is not with the celebration of Christmas, trees, decorations, praying to Christ, going to church, angels on trees or anything like that.

My issue is with the statement that was made about how people in the UK/Canada/US shoud HAVE TO follow these things and the comparison to a RELIGIOUS country.

I completely support peoples rights to enjoy these things and I have no problem with it being in public places, on TV, at my work, at my school, in my home.

But people have the CHOICE to enjoy these things. A choice that I myself make to do so.
They don't HAVE TO do anything. It's their right of living in a secular country to opt out.

Clear?

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

So...Christmas is the equivilant of Mother's day?
It is just on a larger scale because it involves presents for everyone, not just Dear old Mom? And everyone, regardless of race, religion or ethnicity celebrates it?

more or less, yea, its a time to exchange some gifts, spend some time with family, etc. not everyne celebrates it, no... but not everyone celebrates mother's day, etc. for a vast majority of people, this is what christmas has become.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Christians celebrate their own holiday around this time, but it is not Christmas and has nothing to do with Christmas trees?

find something in the bible or in some religious sacrament about the religious significance of decorating a pine tree with red bows.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Not sure about this sentance....but I think you are trying to tell me that walking past a Chirstmas tree does not turn me into a Christian?

Fair enough, but adding a small chanukiah to the display won't bring down western civilisation as we know it either.

true enough, things are progressing at their own pace as our society becomes more integrated with other cultures. i see no problem in companies decorating for other festivals/traditions (religious or not) IF THEY CHOSE TO. there should be nothing that forces them to celebrate every holidy ever dreamed up equally.