__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
This seems really silly to debate since I already addressed it in a subsequent post, but what is the content of that post that you believe merits a serious response? Does the post note that anyone has made the claim that we shouldn't be re-naming Famous Five monuments? Nope. Does the post mention anyone who is in favour of removing the MacDonald statue but against giving the Famous Five the same treatment? Doesn't look like. It also doesn't look like the poster themselves is even in favour of such treatment.
So what part of a post that is clearly lobbing disingenuous and unsubstantiated accusations of hypocrisy in order to muddy the waters would you like me to engage with seriously?
Is it actively making a large enough group of people uncomfortable because of it's ties to genocide and/or slavery for them to want it taken down? If so, it should probably be taken down.
Okay. But how do we know when it's a 'large enough group'? I have no idea how many indigenous people in Victoria feel threatened or angry about the statue. In many of these cases a dozen unelected people say they speak on behalf of a whole community. Throw in a couple newspaper columnists and an academic or two, and we call that 'popular opposition' or 'widespread outrage.' In many cases we're letting our cultural norms be dictated by very small numbers of people because we mistake outrage expressed emphatically for popular opposition.
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Originally Posted by Nyah
I think judging historical figures while taking into context the time period they were in is important. But the reality is, should we have monuments or statues in public places of those who thought our First Nations people were savages and treated them as such?
Virtually all Europeans in the 19th century thought the Natives of the Americas were savages. Are we going to start tearing down statues, or defacing the portraits, of Louisa May Alcott, Emily Dickenson, Oscar Wilde, Walt Whitman, etc. etc. It was recently discovered that Albert Einstein made racist comments in letters while was travelling in India as a young man. What sort of penance should we inflict on his memory?
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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Maybe I misinterpreted it. Was your argument that the people who want the MacDonald statue taken down are hypocrites for not demanding the same of monuments dedicated to the Famous Five, or was it something else?
Yeah, except that wasn't what I was doing. Pointing out that he's using fallacious logic isn't the same as me claiming his position on removing the statue is wrong because he committed said fallacy.
Okay. But how do we know when it's a 'large enough group'? I have no idea how many indigenous people in Victoria feel threatened or angry about the statue. In many of these cases a dozen unelected people say they speak on behalf of a whole community. Throw in a couple newspaper columnists and an academic or two, and we call that 'popular opposition' or 'widespread outrage.' In many cases we're letting our cultural norms be dictated by very small numbers of people because we mistake outrage expressed emphatically for popular opposition.
Virtually all Europeans in the 19th century thought the Natives of the Americas were savages. Are we going to start tearing down statues, or defacing the portraits, of Louisa May Alcott, Emily Dickenson, Oscar Wilde, Walt Whitman, etc. etc. It was recently discovered that Albert Einstein made racist comments in letters while was travelling in India as a young man. What sort of penance should we inflict on his memory?
The US is going to have to rename their capital eventually as George Washington was a slave owner. The capital of Texas, Austin, is going through this now, renaming streets, monuments and maybe the name Austin itself.
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Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
Isnt it better to say: "This is what he did, he forged Confederation, but he also did this, residential schools for natives and it didnt go well, but he didnt know that at the time."
I think that's exactly what they are doing:
Victoria Mayor Lisa Helps notes that a plaque will immediately replace the statue until all parties involved can "find a way to recontextualize Macdonald in an appropriate way." Until then, it will be stored in a city facility.
Established in 2008, the Signs of Lekwungen (pronounced Le-KWUNG-en) is an interpretive walkway along the Inner Harbour and surrounding areas that honours the art, history and culture of the Coast Salish people who have resided in the Victoria area for hundreds of years.
Maybe I misinterpreted it. Was your argument that the people who want the MacDonald statue taken down are hypocrites for not demanding the same of monuments dedicated to the Famous Five, or was it something else?
In that context it would be more accurate. But you are right, I don't give two shats about the darn statue. If the mayor thinks that is the right thing to do for her city that is her job.... I just see this has another slacktivism move that solves nothing. I want solutions! And if this is the game you are going to play well every "group" identity has their historical despots. I thought we had a line and we did for decades but as per usual with social justice causes lower the bar once again ... is this a once off or does this start something? (hopefully just a conversation)
Like it was said above Residential schools tried to address an issue (caused by colonialism no doubt) to help these kids assimilate because at the time it seemed to be the right/best solution. Clearly it didn't turn out so well. The road to hell sometimes is paved with good intentions.
Last edited by MelBridgeman; 08-09-2018 at 03:31 PM.
I think this discussion is missing some context. We need to recognize that all levels of government and many public institutions, churches, community orgs, etc. are working through the calls to action from the 2015 Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Virtually every major municipality in this country has a program responding to those calls to action. Its not just random acts of political correctness caving to minority opinion. Certainly some of the programs will be fruitless or misguided or ineffective but the point is that they are at least attempting to build better relations with First Nations people.
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As long as they keep any statues/references to James Cockburn and Bob Dickey, I couldn't care less what they do to the legacies of the rest of the founding fathers of Confederation!
Is it wrong that I consider this a faux outrage troll job and honestly could not care less if JA McDonald or a Humpty's statue of a cracked egg sits in front of the Victoria legislature?
I will see this statue at best once in my life time and already regret spending the time to write this post....
This seems really silly to debate since I already addressed it in a subsequent post, but what is the content of that post that you believe merits a serious response? Does the post note that anyone has made the claim that we shouldn't be re-naming Famous Five monuments? Nope. Does the post mention anyone who is in favour of removing the MacDonald statue but against giving the Famous Five the same treatment? Doesn't look like. It also doesn't look like the poster themselves is even in favour of such treatment.
So what part of a post that is clearly lobbing disingenuous and unsubstantiated accusations of hypocrisy in order to muddy the waters would you like me to engage with seriously?
Why don't you try taking the suggestion seriously? If we're going to try and erase people from history because we don't like how 19th century viewpoints look from a 21st century lens, then lets consider if the famous five, as the noted example, might actually warrant the same treatment.
It's not a question of simply saying "hurr durr hypocrites", but of asking how far this goes, and which groups are subject to erasure and which are not.
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Is it wrong that I consider this a faux outrage troll job and honestly could not care less if JA McDonald or a Humpty's statue of a cracked egg sits in front of the Victoria legislature?
I will see this statue at best once in my life time and already regret spending the time to write this post....
This is akin to saying "this doesn't bother me, so I fail to see why it might bother someone else."
It may be trivial—I honestly do not know, without having a good understanding behind the offended groups, and how big of an issue they perceive this to be. However, it is wrong to flippantly dismiss these responses that we do not share or find puzzling prima facie as "faux outrage." The right thing to do is to learn about what lies behind the response. In this particular instance, learning from station that this action is most likely part of the 2015 Truth and Reconciliation Commission suggests that it is a small part of a larger movement undertaken by the Victoria government to make reparations.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
Why don't you try taking the suggestion seriously? If we're going to try and erase people from history because we don't like how 19th century viewpoints look from a 21st century lens, then lets consider if the famous five, as the noted example, might actually warrant the same treatment.
It's not a question of simply saying "hurr durr hypocrites", but of asking how far this goes, and which groups are subject to erasure and which are not.
Is that what is happening here? I don't think so. In fact, Victoria's mayor has stated that there are efforts underway to "recontextualize MacDonald."
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
It's just a big smoke screen. Someone should have a look in the harbor and see what kind of horrible disaster they're dumping out along with their sewage.
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