Chrismas trees removed in Sea-Tac airport

[AC]

Originally Posted by skins

true that it didn't used to be a religious holiday, but now it is. just because Christmas today has no religious meaning for you, doesn't mean that it can't for others.

I didn't say it couldnt. But it shouldn't.

Originally Posted by skins

are you acknowledging that Jesus was in fact born and that he was a real person? Just wondering because I thought you were in the Jesus isn't real camp with Cheese, Troutman, and others. If not, my mistake.

I'm going by the religious account here. If they celebrate his birth, one would think they'd have it right.
Whether or not I believe he existed doesn't affect the fact that the Christian celebration of his birth isn't even backed up by scripture.

And yes, I am an atheist through and through.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Frankly, I think more people associate Santa Claus with Christmas than Jesus.

My Eastern Religions professor told me a funny anectode about a department store in Japan that was trying to bring the Christian interpretation of Christmas together with the 'Santa' aspect by proudly displaying in their window a giant image of Santa nailed to the cross.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Ah, so I guess rabbits decorated with pastel colored ribbons and a basket are a Christian symbol as well.

Yes, they are. especially in late March-early April. I'd say they are the second most popular Easter symbol after the coloured eggs.

Sorry, not buying it. Too many non-Christians celebrate Christmas in the traditional way without a mention or thought of Christ for that to be valid.

So, if ,walking along the mall in September, you saw a pine tree with lights strung around it, what would you think? I venture to say that most people would think to themselves "my, they are starting the Christmas thing early this year." Not 'hey, nice everyday decoration, lights up the mall nicely.'

A symbol becomes a symbol by frequency of use and popular acceptance. Note the issue with the restaurant in India using the swastika symbol - though at one time it may have ment one thing, through frequency of use in one way it is popularly accepted as a villinous symbol.

Just because a signifcant part of the Christian population observes the holiday in a secular way does not alter the meaning of the symbols of that holiday.

Conversly, the Red Poppy on rememberance day. It has become a secular symbol of rememberance for this country's fallen soldiers. It is not a Christian symbol as it is not associated with a Chirstian holiday, but a symbol that spans faith, but not boarders as shown by the atempt of introducing the White Poppy, which at one time was prevelant in the UK.

When I see a tree lit up, or holly, or poinsettas, or snowmen (frosty) I think Christmas - Christian holiday. When I see coloured eggs or chocolate bunnies I think Easter - Christian holiday. Those symbols have become associated with Christianity - whether the secular populace wants them to or not.

[skins]

Originally Posted by AnthonyCook

Whether or not I believe he existed doesn't affect the fact that the Christian celebration of his birth isn't even backed up by scripture.

can you explain what you mean by this? are you saying that there is no mention of the celebration of Christmas in the Bible, or that the Bible doesn't say that people should celebrate Christmas?

[AC]

Originally Posted by skins

can you explain what you mean by this? are you saying that there is no mention of the celebration of Christmas in the Bible, or that the Bible doesn't say that people should celebrate Christmas?

That there aren't any connections of Jesus' birth with December 25th.

In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ’s birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Some people are indeed crazy. A few years ago, my company had a lady that would get offended if we put up a Christmas tree in the company. Since it is by the order of the president of the company, she couldn't do anything, but would take every opportunity to criticize any christmas decorations...including my little tree in MY OWN OFFICE.

I'm glad she quit awhile ago. She would have freaked if she saw our new company tree.

But, just for a minute, try to put yourself in her shoes (if she was Jewish, or celebrated Kwanza, etc...)

Say your office put up decorations for a holiday you did not celebrate or associate with, while not only completely ignoring Christmas, but dismising your requests or inquiries (and thusly you). Would you not be a bit upset?

Now, yes, normal people just shrug and put what they want in their own office - 'Hey, nice mini-tree, come on over and check out my mini-candleabra.'

She was a bit extreme with constant critisism.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Yes, they are. especially in late March-early April. I'd say they are the second most popular Easter symbol after the coloured eggs.



So, if ,walking along the mall in September, you saw a pine tree with lights strung around it, what would you think? I venture to say that most people would think to themselves "my, they are starting the Christmas thing early this year." Not 'hey, nice everyday decoration, lights up the mall nicely.'

.

Exactly what would cross my mind!

Not a single thought of religion or JC (that stands for Jerry Cantrell in my world).

I understand your logic, there was no need to explain it again. I just don't think its valid because I don't believe the Christmas Tree or the Easter Bunny or colored eggs or Frosty the Snowman conjur thoughts of Jesus and Christian faith for the majority of people.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by AnthonyCook

My Eastern Religions professor told me a funny anectode about a department store in Japan that was trying to bring the Christian interpretation of Christmas together with the 'Santa' aspect by proudly displaying in their window a giant image of Santa nailed to the cross.

Like this one outside of Victoria this year? link

Above Santa's head, Wright has inscribed the words 'Sumptum Fac Donec Consumptus Sis.' Roughly translated, Wright said, it means 'Shop till you drop.'

....

"It's a funny feeling when I'm sitting in my hot tub, looking out this way, and I'm trying to make a statement to everybody to slow down on what they can consume, and I'm in a 6,400-square-foot home."

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

But, just for a minute, try to put yourself in her shoes (if she was Jewish, or celebrated Kwanza, etc...)

Say your office put up decorations for a holiday you did not celebrate or associate with, while not only completely ignoring Christmas, but dismising your requests or inquiries (and thusly you). Would you not be a bit upset?

Now, yes, normal people just shrug and put what they want in their own office - 'Hey, nice mini-tree, come on over and check out my mini-candleabra.'

She was a bit extreme with constant critisism.

Ahhh....she is working in a predominantly Christian country (80% of the population is Christian)....she needs to get use to it. She don't like it....go work or live in a different country.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

......
If a public body is going to decorate a public space they should be cognisant of who will be walking through that space. If they decorate with 'Christmas' symbols at their expense then they should be willing to decorate with other symbols at their expense, within reason.
......
The airport's argument that they didn't have time to play 'anthropologist' is BS! The money they spent bringing down the decorations could have been spent on one staffer doing a little reasearch. It really is not that hard. The sect that that rabbi belongs to generally does not run to a lawyer but tries to educate the propery managers and help aquire the chanukiah for the display (as happened with Vaughan Mills Mall in Toronto).

Winter ethnic holidays to be aware of:
Christmas
Hannukah
Kwanza
Ukraninan/Lithuanian Christmas
Chinese New Year
Ramadan (once very few years it falls in Dec.)

But honestly when does it stop? The majority of people in Canada celebrates Christmas either religously or seasonaly. Once you start catering to one religion in the same way wouldn't that open the flood gates? And you would have to decorate with an international grab bag. Not that I am against religions by any means and to me Christmas has no religous significance. The simplest solution seems to be stop decorating with any decorations that elude to any religion. Would I go to Israel and demand they put up a Christmas in their airport because the lack of one affends me? No. So why does that happen here? Well, because we have a more tolerance culture. But can't that tolerance go both ways?

[habernac]

Hey, if you want to put up whatever symbol is important to you, go nuts! Nothing wrong with a little diversity. But don't demand it of others. I'm not going to go to my neighbour and demand that he add a Christmas tree to his home because it's what I think fits best with the season.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

But, just for a minute, try to put yourself in her shoes (if she was Jewish, or celebrated Kwanza, etc...)

Say your office put up decorations for a holiday you did not celebrate or associate with, while not only completely ignoring Christmas, but dismising your requests or inquiries (and thusly you). Would you not be a bit upset?

Now, yes, normal people just shrug and put what they want in their own office - 'Hey, nice mini-tree, come on over and check out my mini-candleabra.'

She was a bit extreme with constant critisism.

I have been in her shoes. I am chinese. Do you honestly think my first belief of choice is Christianity?

I have even lived in a predominantly muslim country as a buddist. I have had to endure loud speakers of koran reading during suppertime, and islamic tv shows. So yes, I have been in her shoes.

However, I learned that to complain and criticize it is a moot cause. It is better to educate people on your belief than to be vocal about what should and shouldn't be displayed. I used to have a Jewish coworker who would invite us to his house to celebrate his holiday. Never has he been critical of the company tree, or the decorations in the mall. He understands that the majority celebrates this holiday, and as a minority, he has learned to educate those that aren't familiar with his beliefs.

I don't see why people can't follow this example.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Ahhh....she is working in a predominantly Christian country (80% of the population is Christian)....she needs to get use to it. She don't like it....go work or live in a different country.

Soooo.....if I'm black working in a predominantly white company; or a woman working in a predominatly male company, I should get used to off colour jokes about blacks or pin-up calanders or go work or live in a different country?

I thought Christianity preached tolerance?

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Ahhh....she is working in a predominantly Christian country (80% of the population is Christian)....she needs to get use to it. She don't like it....go work or live in a different country.

This is my thinking. Why all of a sudden does everything have to be about being polically correct. Christmas has been celebrated for the longest time in Canada and the US and all of a sudden just because people from other religions start complaining we should suppress the decorations, celebrations, etc. That is ridiculous. There should be some sort of assimilation that should take place when you move to a new country, after all if we were to move to their country they would expect us to assimilate to their celebrations.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Soooo.....if I'm black working in a predominantly white company; or a woman working in a predominatly male company, I should get used to off colour jokes about blacks or pin-up calanders or go work or live in a different country?

I thought Christianity preached tolerance?

Ah I see. So a Christmas tree has become so offensive to the point that it's offensiveness is equal or greater to off colour jokes about blacks and pin-up calenders. I suddenly understand now.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

This is my thinking. Why all of a sudden does everything have to be about being polically correct. Christmas has been celebrated for the longest time in Canada and the US and all of a sudden just because people from other religions start complaining we should suppress the decorations, celebrations, etc. That is ridiculous. There should be some sort of assimilation that should take place when you move to a new country, after all if we were to move to their country they would expect us to assimilate to their celebrations.

I don't agree with your "assimilation" assertion. But I also think they shouldn't complain about the tradition and culture already in place. They don't need to celebrate Xmas, but they shouldn't complain about the existing celebrations or cultural celebrations either.

[nfotiu]

But it's not your neighbour, it is a publically funded building, that I assume is spending public money on these decorations.

Try living around a bunch of southern babtists, and tell me that Christmas is not a Christian holiday. Peoples' offices in my building are filled with decorations asking us to celebrate Christ's birth, celebrate He who died for my sins/etc. Throw in our cafeteria workers who always like to sing a prayer to me, or remind me how blessed we should all feel at this time or year, etc.

It can get to be a little much, and I could understand someone wanting people to keep their celebrations to themselves a little more.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Burninator

But honestly when does it stop? The majority of people in Canada celebrates Christmas either religously or seasonaly. Once you start catering to one religion in the same way wouldn't that open the flood gates? And you would have to decorate with an international grab bag. Not that I am against religions by any means and to me Christmas has no religous significance. The simplest solution seems to be stop decorating with any decorations that elude to any religion. Would I go to Israel and demand they put up a Christmas in their airport because the lack of one affends me? No. So why does that happen here? Well, because we have a more tolerance culture. But can't that tolerance go both ways?

There is a tree in Ben Gurion Airport - helps promote the annual pilgramage to Bethlehem. Tourism dollars are great.

I think for the most part tolerance does go both ways, but one side, being in the minority clearly has little choice in the matter.

What is wrong with a person asking the management of public space building if in addition to their decked out halls they add a chanukiah or a Kwanza candleabra or reasonalbe size? They are not asking for equal space. The intolerance comes when the other party decides that it is less trouble to do nothing or outright dismiss the request than try to come to a reasonalbe solution or a respectful decline of the request.

The issue is not a lack of representation or equality, it is one of respect.

I respect your seasonal decoration of our public space with your symbols, can we not respect my seasonal sentiments with my sysmbols?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

What is wrong with a person asking the management of public space building if in addition to their decked out halls they add a chanukiah or a Kwanza candleabra or reasonalbe size? They are not asking for equal space. The intolerance comes when the other party decides that it is less trouble to do nothing or outright dismiss the request than try to come to a reasonalbe solution or a respectful decline of the request.

The issue is not a lack of representation or equality, it is one of respect.

I respect your seasonal decoration of our public space with your symbols, can we not respect my seasonal sentiments with my sysmbols?

See, this I can agree with. SEATAC could've made the effort. The Rabbi in question never asked for the trees to be removed.

I just disagree with your argument that the Christmas tree is a religious symbol.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by skins

can you explain what you mean by this? are you saying that there is no mention of the celebration of Christmas in the Bible, or that the Bible doesn't say that people should celebrate Christmas?

There is no mention of the celebration of Christ's birth in the bible.

That being said I think in a free society any public expression of
a religious conviction should be tolerated with accepted limits. We
have a Chinese restaurant in Creston that has a little shrine(idol) on
one counter. I would never consider asking for it's removal or a cross
to be placed next to it. They have never requested that I refrain from
praying before I eat either. It's called respecting another individuals
right to self expression.