2018 Blue Jays Season Thread

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by fleury

How about the rest of the deals where the prospects didn't transpire? Syndergaard was their 3rd ranked pitching prospect at the time.

He was not. He was universally regarded as better then Nicolinio & anyone who valued performance had him rated higher then Sanchez... AA just wasn't one of those.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by fleury

He had a plan. The plan in hindsight was to deal guys who had no future with the club, get draft picks and solid prospects, see who pans out, promote them to the club, then deal others at the right time for bonafide stars the year the Jays went for it. Some of those deals, as you mentioned, didn't go well, but that one that you pointed out was the one in hindsight they'd take back. However, almost all the others, at the time, were solid deals which had the Jays even then winning all. He did leave the cupboards bare, but even Norris dealt to the Tigers didn't amount to much. AA deserved a ton of credit for rebuilding and going for it at the right moment.

This isn't to poop on Atkins and Shapiro yet, because they've made a lot of smaller signings and deals that have worked out. However, I've yet to see them acquire those blue chip prospects. Seems like they're working with a lot of mediocrity and not going to the direction of a rebuild but rather a retool, without fully committing. It's just a lot of neither here nor there and I'm scratching my head as to what direction it's going to go. Am I the only one who can't read what's going on?

I feel like Atkins and Shapiro have done the same thing - they are trying to build through the draft. Most of AAs good work was done in the draft and the only real big seller trade was Roy Halladay.

This is where AA was patient his first couple years in Toronto too - stockpiling players in the draft and getting value in free agents/ waiver players (Smoak / Encarnación / Estrada ).

I think in retrospect the issue was outside of the Donaldson trade AA didn’t really spend those assets well (even though most of the prospects didn’t turn out). Dickey was just okay, the Reyes trade was a flop, Tulo wasn’t a great move, and Price was good but failed come playoff time.

In the end the moves that AA made to go all in resulted in a playoff spot but ultimately weren’t that great of moves when looked at individually (outside of JD of course).

Price: 2.6 WAR as a Jay, 0 playoff wins (Rental)
Dickey: 7.3 WAR as a Jay (4 seasons)
Tulo: 4.8 WAR as a Jay (4 seasons)
Reyes: 6.2 WAR as a Jay (3 seasons)

Pretty much all these guys ended up being 2.0 WAR players on average. Even though the prospects didn’t pan out for the most part too there was opportunity cost there and AA went all in on the wrong guys.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by fleury

No doubt, I say f him as well, but it's hard to pin the complete guilty stick on him when details haven't come out (that I know of). There's the image and character of the club they want to preserve, and with a young talent like Osuna you don't want to give him away for a lesser return to prove a point. .

Hmmm actually in this case you do.
I'm fine with, in this case, and cases like it, basic morals winning out over maximizing return.
I've read enough about what allegedly happened to conclude that if a fraction of it is true, Osuna is a garbage human being that should never play in MLB again. The fact that the Astros are going to give him a chance is a bad look for them.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by fleury

He had a plan. The plan in hindsight was to deal guys who had no future with the club, get draft picks and solid prospects, see who pans out, promote them to the club, then deal others at the right time for bonafide stars the year the Jays went for it. Some of those deals, as you mentioned, didn't go well, but that one that you pointed out was the one in hindsight they'd take back. However, almost all the others, at the time, were solid deals which had the Jays even then winning all. He did leave the cupboards bare, but even Norris dealt to the Tigers didn't amount to much. AA deserved a ton of credit for rebuilding and going for it at the right moment.

This isn't to poop on Atkins and Shapiro yet, because they've made a lot of smaller signings and deals that have worked out. However, I've yet to see them acquire those blue chip prospects. Seems like they're working with a lot of mediocrity and not going to the direction of a rebuild but rather a retool, without fully committing. It's just a lot of neither here nor there and I'm scratching my head as to what direction it's going to go. Am I the only one who can't read what's going on?

Which blue chip prospect did he acquire? The Halladay trade didn't work out, and the only position player or prospect that he acquired that wound up being anything at all was Kevin Pillar.

I think the opposite. AA early on did not have a plan and really until he got Donaldson, which to give him credit was an excellent acquisition, he was really spinning his wheels as a GM (which he himself sort of admits). His trades were mostly to give up prospects for MLB ready talent, or to acquire what he felt was under valued talent (ie Yunel Escobar, Colby Rasmus) and neither approach worked all that well.

I see more of a plan out of Shapiro/Atkins personally.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by cross16

Which blue chip prospect did he acquire? The Halladay trade didn't work out, and the only position player or prospect that he acquired that wound up being anything at all was Kevin Pillar.

I think the opposite. AA early on did not have a plan and really until he got Donaldson, which to give him credit was an excellent acquisition, he was really spinning his wheels as a GM (which he himself sort of admits).

I see more of a plan out of Shapiro/Atkins personally.

I honestly can’t remember the majority of the deals at the beginning but he did deal for Lawrie, who at the time was a very highly touted prospect. Which is how Donaldson came to be. I’m sure there were others, but there was a definite plan in place to get picks from losing guys and such to qualifying offers.

As for having a plan in place for Atkins and Shapiro, to be clear, you don’t work for an organization and not have a plan. Behind the scenes they 100% have one drawn up and probably pitched to the board. I don’t have line of sight on what that is exactly. What I’m seeing is possibly flawed execution on getting higher end prospect talent through deals. So far none of these guys are highly touted. The foreign signings from abroad look to be but these guys that they’re trading for seem to have a significant ceiling or small chance of reaching that ceiling.

[JTech780]

Originally Posted by fleury

I honestly can’t remember the majority of the deals at the beginning but he did deal for Lawrie, who at the time was a very highly touted prospect. Which is how Donaldson came to be. I’m sure there were others, but there was a definite plan in place to get picks from losing guys and such to qualifying offers.

As for having a plan in place for Atkins and Shapiro, to be clear, you don’t work for an organization and not have a plan. Behind the scenes they 100% have one drawn up and probably pitched to the board. I don’t have line of sight on what that is exactly. What I’m seeing is possibly flawed execution on getting higher end prospect talent through deals. So far none of these guys are highly touted. The foreign signings from abroad look to be but these guys that they’re trading for seem to have a significant ceiling or small chance of reaching that ceiling.

I think baseball has changed and changed very recently, like within the last year or two. Teams no longer are willing to give up top prospects, it is becoming more and more rare that teams deal from their top 10 prospects and even more rare that they deal from the top 5. So while you can judge Atkins and Shapiro for not getting blue chip prospects, but I don't think that is entirely fair as those players just aren't available in trades anymore, and on top of that we really don't have assets to pry those type of returns from teams.

Sanchez and Stroman might get you top end prospects in return, but even that is no sure thing as neither player can stay on the field and when they are on the field they have been really inconsistent.

[browna]

Gibby should flat out pull Hernandez out of left mid inning. A simple lazy drop of a fly ball and then a half assed effort to get to the next fly ball which he misses again as it hits the base of the wall. Haven't seen such nochalence on two straight batters in a long time.

[Karl]

Jays just suck so, so, so bad.

[Karl]

Forget about Biagini. Just bring in a position player to pitch. Game's totally out of hope.

[Karl]

C'mon man. Bring someone like Travis in to pitch.

[browna]

A's tacked on 5 runs that inning after that disgusting display by Hernandez.

[Karl]

All right! No shutout!

[Karl]

This team is just so dog crap terrible. Yeah, there are worse teams around in MLB but Jays are still a garbage team.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Inferno

The Donaldson move is retroactive and just to free up another spot. He's still expected to come back soon.

This is what I Don't understand. Why did Donaldson start the season on the roster. Everything about this management group has been geared towards a rebuild. Your stud best prospect in baseball plays Donaldson's position. You're not going to extend him. He's already had some injury issues.

I've never witnessed a player loose quite as much money as Donaldson has this year. He was probably looking at $150+. And now he's gonna be lucky if someone gives him Encarnacion money.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

This is what I Don't understand. Why did Donaldson start the season on the roster. Everything about this management group has been geared towards a rebuild. Your stud best prospect in baseball plays Donaldson's position. You're not going to extend him. He's already had some injury issues.

I've never witnessed a player loose quite as much money as Donaldson has this year. He was probably looking at $150+. And now he's gonna be lucky if someone gives him Encarnacion money.

I honestly have no idea how he will get more then a 1 year contract next year.



If Jays qualify him, no one is giving up a pick to sign him. I assume the Jays will qualify him, and his options become take the 1 year deal or sit out for 2 months, sign for 1 year once the draft pick compensation is off the table, and hope to rebuild his value

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

This is what I Don't understand. Why did Donaldson start the season on the roster. Everything about this management group has been geared towards a rebuild. Your stud best prospect in baseball plays Donaldson's position. You're not going to extend him. He's already had some injury issues.

I've never witnessed a player loose quite as much money as Donaldson has this year. He was probably looking at $150+. And now he's gonna be lucky if someone gives him Encarnacion money.

With the pitching the Jays thought they had, they thought they could make something of a run this year. Also, they were expecting a healthy Donaldson to bring in a big return at the deadline. That, obviously, blew up in their faces. The stud prospect does not factor into the 2018 decision making at all as he was never going to hit the bigs this year.

[Resolute 14]

And back to the Osuna trade - Justin Verlander's comments in Houston really came off to me as a guy who is not at all happy but was trying to at least not outright criticize his employer's decisions.

And then you have their GM pulling Trump-calibre doublespeak in saying that "zero tolerance" on domestic abuse doesn't preclude offering second chances to domestic abusers.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

With the pitching the Jays thought they had, they thought they could make something of a run this year. Also, they were expecting a healthy Donaldson to bring in a big return at the deadline. That, obviously, blew up in their faces. The stud prospect does not factor into the 2018 decision making at all as he was never going to hit the bigs this year.

Delusion is a powerful thing. There were so many glaring holes on this team - bullpen, batting, and speed - that there was no way they could compete with the Yanks or Red Sox. Last season was their last chance and with the current iteration of the team and it blew up. They should have sold off their pieces early to start the rebuild.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Loup is gone to the Phillies for a minor league pitcher.

Toronto Blue Jays@BlueJays
OFFICIAL: We've acquired minor league RHP Jacob Waguespack from the @Phillies in exchange for LHP Aaron Loup.

[GirlySports]

yeah donaldson to the Cards in the offseason for weaver, flaherty etc.. that's now all gone