[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[chedder]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Not sure if this is posted somewhere else, but capfriendly has the Flames with $4,538,290 in capspace remaining.

How many years can 4.5M Av get you? when in Hanifin supposed to become a UFA?

Flames Nation piece says that he will be ufa in july 2022. So a three year bridge is the most to keep him rfa.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by FBI

and the problem with buying Brouwer out is???

2 extra years of dead cap space that might be needed when 3 of our top 5 D (2 of whom are on team-friendly deals) are UFAs in 2020?

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

2 extra years of dead cap space that might be needed when 3 of our top 5 D (2 of whom are on team-friendly deals) are UFAs in 2020?

Ya but by then we should have some rfas to replace some of them and the cap will be higher. Also we will have other buyouts off the books so it's a wash there. Just buy him out, get Hanifin locked up for 7 and have some flexibility in the cap.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

2 extra years of dead cap space that might be needed when 3 of our top 5 D (2 of whom are on team-friendly deals) are UFAs in 2020?

Andersson, Valimaki and Kylington should all be ready to play regular NHL shifts by then - a lot of people already think Andersson and Valimaki are ready now.

I think we would be wise to re-sign Hamonic due to his unique skillset compared to the rest of our group but feel we need to start transitioning some young guys into the lineup over the next couple years - especially on the backend. I think Peters being the primary coaching target indicates Treliving might feel the same way. At the STH event he said he thought we had the best defensive pipeline in the league with the big three and Fox in the mix at that time.

To remain competitive in a salary cap structure players like Stone, Frolik and Brouwer need to be moved out and replaced by the likes of Andersson, Dube and Foo/Mangiapane. If Valimaki, Andersson, Kylington and even Hanifin develop as planned a guy like Brodie should be able to be moved out as well.

In a couple years time would it be out of the realm of possibility to see?:

Gio-Hanifin
Valimaki-Andersson
Kylington-Hamonic

[PugnaciousIntern]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Andersson, Valimaki and Kylington should all be ready to play regular NHL shifts by then - a lot of people already think Andersson and Valimaki are ready now.

I think we would be wise to re-sign Hamonic due to his unique skillset compared to the rest of our group but feel we need to start transitioning some young guys into the lineup over the next couple years - especially on the backend. I think Peters being the primary coaching target indicates Treliving might feel the same way. At the STH event he said he thought we had the best defensive pipeline in the league with the big three and Fox in the mix at that time.

To remain competitive in a salary cap structure players like Stone, Frolik and Brouwer need to be moved out and replaced by the likes of Andersson, Dube and Foo/Mangiapane. If Valimaki, Andersson, Kylington and even Hanifin develop as planned a guy like Brodie should be able to be moved out as well.

In a couple years time would it be out of the realm of possibility to see?:

Gio-Hanifin
Valimaki-Andersson
Kylington-Hamonic

Honestly, yeah probably that's unrealistic (although I'll admit it's within a 'realm of possibility'). The success of transition from AHL to NHL for defencemen is low and hard to predict. Andersson is the most experienced of those prospects with 10 NHL games, and slower defencemen are rarely breaking into the league for regular 2nd pairing shifts. Valimaki looked increasingly over his head as training camp progressed last year, and while I hope he will pan out and think he had another good season, mid-1st round draft picks are far from locks to be reliable 2nd pairing guys. Finally, the probability of Kylington cementing himself in the lineup as a regular is fairly unlikely. It's the nature of the game.

Overall, I think it's expected that at least one of them will become a regular, certainly possible that two will make the jump, but fairly unlikely that all three make it.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by PugnaciousIntern

Honestly, yeah probably that's unrealistic (although I'll admit it's within a 'realm of possibility'). The success of transition from AHL to NHL for defencemen is low and hard to predict. Andersson is the most experienced of those prospects with 10 NHL games, and slower defencemen are rarely breaking into the league for regular 2nd pairing shifts. Valimaki looked increasingly over his head as training camp progressed last year, and while I hope he will pan out and think he had another good season, mid-1st round draft picks are far from locks to be reliable 2nd pairing guys. Finally, the probability of Kylington cementing himself in the lineup as a regular is fairly unlikely. It's the nature of the game.

Overall, I think it's expected that at least one of them will become a regular, certainly possible that two will make the jump, but fairly unlikely that all three make it.

Most Flames fans and followers already agree Andersson is ready for primetime and Stone should be moved to make room.

Valimaki is regarded extremely highly as well and many of the same fans and followers feel he should be able to make the NHL sooner rather than later.

I know it's hard to believe due to our historically poor prospect pool but we do for once have a strong group of prospects, specifically on defence.

Organization's like Nashville and Anahiem are recent examples where a number of defensive prospects have been drafted, developed and made the league in a short period of time.

Why can't Calgary be an example of this? The organization has done a good job of investing in improved drafting and development. Why can't we be excited about that?

I've always been fair in my judgements about our prospects. Outside of the goalies the only prospects I was really high on but never made it were Boyd and Taratukhin.

I can understand being conservative so as to not end up disappointed but I really think we have a bright future on the backend in Hanfin, Andersson and Valimaki. Kylington to me looks to be trending in the right direction as well but I will concede he is more of a wildcard.

In my original post I said it would be wise to bring back Hamonic so we would still have 3 of our current top 4 with 2 more years of development from the younger guys. Stone is already being talked about as not being part of the long-term plans and Kulak was, in part, put on waivers because the organization knew what they had in the pipeline and felt less concerned about losing him.

It isn't out of the realm of possibility to me that Stone and Brodie won't be here in two years time but you are entitled to your own opinion if you think otherwise.

You seemed to focus on my pairings, which is understandable, but I did it merely to illustrate how I see their upsides: Hanifin as a top pairing guy, Valimaki and Andersson as top 4 guys, and Kylington as a top 6. In truth they all have top pairing potential but I feel given where they are at in their careers the above seems fair.

[PugnaciousIntern]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Most Flames fans and followers already agree Andersson is ready for primetime and Stone should be moved to make room.

Valimaki is regarded extremely highly as well and many of the same fans and followers feel he should be able to make the NHL sooner rather than later.

I know it's hard to believe due to our historically poor prospect pool but we do for once have a strong group of prospects, specifically on defence.

Organization's like Nashville and Anahiem are recent examples where a number of defensive prospects have been drafted, developed and made the league in a short period of time.

Why can't Calgary be an example of this? The organization has done a good job of investing in improved drafting and development. Why can't we be excited about that?

I've always been fair in my judgements about our prospects. Outside of the goalies the only prospects I was really high on but never made it were Boyd and Taratukhin.

I can understand being conservative so as to not end up disappointed but I really think we have a bright future on the backend in Hanfin, Andersson and Valimaki. Kylington to me looks to be trending in the right direction as well but I will concede he is more of a wildcard.

In my original post I said it would be wise to bring back Hamonic so we would still have 3 of our current top 4 with 2 more years of development from the younger guys. Stone is already being talked about as not being part of the long-term plans and Kulak was, in part, put on waivers because the organization knew what they had in the pipeline and felt less concerned about losing him.

It isn't out of the realm of possibility to me that Stone and Brodie won't be here in two years time but you are entitled to your own opinion if you think otherwise.

You seemed to focus on my pairings, which is understandable, but I did it merely to illustrate how I see their upsides: Hanifin as a top pairing guy, Valimaki and Andersson as top 4 guys, and Kylington as a top 6. In truth they all have top pairing potential but I feel given where they are at in their careers the above seems fair.

Most fans might think a variety of things things, but to be honest I was just posting my own opinions. They'll deviate from the majority from time to time.
I know that Valimaki is highly regarded - he is highly regarded by myself as well. But he's a highly regarded prospect who has only played Jr so far, and that story has been told before with many different endings.

I am envious of those teams that have recently enjoyed success developing defencemen, but that's the minority. We can absolutely be excited about the prospects, but excitement and planning a team structure around 3 unproven defencemen are very different. I'm quite excited about all 3 of them. In summary, I guess what I'm saying is that I will be pleased if one of those 3 become staples in the Flames' lineup, and 'excited' if two of them make it. All 3 and I would be over the moon.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Andersson, Valimaki and Kylington should all be ready to play regular NHL shifts by then - a lot of people already think Andersson and Valimaki are ready now.

I think we would be wise to re-sign Hamonic due to his unique skillset compared to the rest of our group but feel we need to start transitioning some young guys into the lineup over the next couple years - especially on the backend. I think Peters being the primary coaching target indicates Treliving might feel the same way. At the STH event he said he thought we had the best defensive pipeline in the league with the big three and Fox in the mix at that time.

To remain competitive in a salary cap structure players like Stone, Frolik and Brouwer need to be moved out and replaced by the likes of Andersson, Dube and Foo/Mangiapane. If Valimaki, Andersson, Kylington and even Hanifin develop as planned a guy like Brodie should be able to be moved out as well.

In a couple years time would it be out of the realm of possibility to see?:

Gio-Hanifin
Valimaki-Andersson
Kylington-Hamonic

Man, this is a solid, solid post.

That top-6, were it to live up to its potential, is very well designed. Hamonic filling the Engelland role appeals to me as well - Travis is a much better player, with all the respect in the world to Engelland.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by PugnaciousIntern

Most fans might think a variety of things things, but to be honest I was just posting my own opinions. They'll deviate from the majority from time to time.
I know that Valimaki is highly regarded - he is highly regarded by myself as well. But he's a highly regarded prospect who has only played Jr so far, and that story has been told before with many different endings.

I am envious of those teams that have recently enjoyed success developing defencemen, but that's the minority. We can absolutely be excited about the prospects, but excitement and planning a team structure around 3 unproven defencemen are very different. I'm quite excited about all 3 of them. In summary, I guess what I'm saying is that I will be pleased if one of those 3 become staples in the Flames' lineup, and 'excited' if two of them make it. All 3 and I would be over the moon.

I think I would be quite disappointed if only one of them made it.

Valimaki, Andersson and Dube all look like surefire NHLers to me. I know 2 of them have never played pro, outside of Dube's impressive late season debut in Stockton, but it's just a feeling I have.

I think Kylington, Mangiapane and Foo are close as well but still have to prove more for me to put them with the aforementioned players.

Also I hear what you are saying about planning the team structure around 3 unproven defenders but I am also not going to be to worked up about 3 x 30 year old defenseman coming off the books in two years time which is what my original post was arguing.

One is already looking like he will be on the outside looking in soon with the emergence of Andersson. The other was on most people's trade list due to having a couple of off years and is now being placed back on the top pairing to help recapture earlier success. The third I think we should retain.

We know Gio and Hanifin will be here for the foreseeable future and Hamonic will likely be an easy guy to retain considering he wanted to come to western Canada. Stone has never been viewed as a key piece to our future d-core and Brodie is a wildcard. I like him but if he is passed by some of the younger guys on the depth chart it would make sense to trade him for other assets. This seems more logical when you consider alot of the things he does well are similar to alot of the things players like Hanifin and Kylington also excel at.

Obviously you don't move guys out until they are outplayed by a youngster but I can foresee that happening within the next 2 years.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Andersson, Valimaki and Kylington should all be ready to play regular NHL shifts by then - a lot of people already think Andersson and Valimaki are ready now.

I think we would be wise to re-sign Hamonic due to his unique skillset compared to the rest of our group but feel we need to start transitioning some young guys into the lineup over the next couple years - especially on the backend. I think Peters being the primary coaching target indicates Treliving might feel the same way. At the STH event he said he thought we had the best defensive pipeline in the league with the big three and Fox in the mix at that time.

To remain competitive in a salary cap structure players like Stone, Frolik and Brouwer need to be moved out and replaced by the likes of Andersson, Dube and Foo/Mangiapane. If Valimaki, Andersson, Kylington and even Hanifin develop as planned a guy like Brodie should be able to be moved out as well.

In a couple years time would it be out of the realm of possibility to see?:

Gio-Hanifin
Valimaki-Andersson
Kylington-Hamonic

In a couple of years, Gio should not be on the 1st pairing, and Hanifin has not proven that he belongs there yet. Andersson has not shown 2nd pairing chops to this point (or even 3rd pairing, for that matter). Kylington has perhaps a 50% chance of being a regular NHLer.

Your assertion is based on an overly-optimistic projection of where Gio, Hanifin, Valimaki, Andersson, and Kylington will be at that point, and still requires the re-signing of Hamonic, who will be at that point be on a less team-friendly deal or one that has too long a term. Realistically, you can expect that only one of our defensive prospects will hit his ceiling, and the Flames will be happy if two of them become permanent fixtures on the team. The problem is that many fans equate a player's potential ceiling with where they expect him to play, and they compare prospects who haven't proven anything with established NHLers who have proven that they can perform at that level.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't play a prospect if he had proven that he could perform at the NHL level, and I would gladly replace a veteran with a prospect who had clearly demonstrated that his performance was at least close to the level of the veteran. But the vast majority of prospects never perform at the NHL level to the degree that they are projected to based on their pre-professional careers.

In the end, I don't think we will be ready in 2 years to replace all of Brodie, Hamonic and Stone (and Kulak is also on a 1-year deal). If we can replace Stone and Kulak, I will be happy, but in addition to Hamonic, I think we will still have to sign someone capable of doing 1st pairing minutes (waiting for Hanifin to prove that he can take it to that level, Gio is getting older, and if we don't re-sign Brodie, who will be on the 1st pairing in 2 years?). I get what you're saying about players being passed by prospects on the depth chart, but there are a lot of big ifs there. I'm not yet convinced that any of those prospects will be better than Brodie. I have some hope that they will, but you can't build a team based on what you hope players will become, especially on D.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

In a couple of years, Gio should not be on the 1st pairing, and Hanifin has not proven that he belongs there yet. Andersson has not shown 2nd pairing chops to this point (or even 3rd pairing, for that matter). Kylington has perhaps a 50% chance of being a regular NHLer.

Your assertion is based on an overly-optimistic projection of where Gio, Hanifin, Valimaki, Andersson, and Kylington will be at that point, and still requires the re-signing of Hamonic, who will be at that point be on a less team-friendly deal or one that has too long a term. Realistically, you can expect that only one of our defensive prospects will hit his ceiling, and the Flames will be happy if two of them become permanent fixtures on the team. The problem is that many fans equate a player's potential ceiling with where they expect him to play, and they compare prospects who haven't proven anything with established NHLers who have proven that they can perform at that level.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't play a prospect if he had proven that he could perform at the NHL level, and I would gladly replace a veteran with a prospect who had clearly demonstrated that his performance was at least close to the level of the veteran. But the vast majority of prospects never perform at the NHL level to the degree that they are projected to based on their pre-professional careers.

In the end, I don't think we will be ready in 2 years to replace all of Brodie, Hamonic and Stone (and Kulak is also on a 1-year deal). If we can replace Stone and Kulak, I will be happy, but in addition to Hamonic, I think we will still have to sign someone capable of doing 1st pairing minutes (waiting for Hanifin to prove that he can take it to that level, Gio is getting older, and if we don't re-sign Brodie, who will be on the 1st pairing in 2 years?). I get what you're saying about players being passed by prospects on the depth chart, but there are a lot of big ifs there. I'm not yet convinced that any of those prospects will be better than Brodie. I have some hope that they will, but you can't build a team based on what you hope players will become, especially on D.

As I explained in my posts that followed the original my whole argument was essentially that I wasn't going to worry about having 3 x 30 year old defenceman coming off the books at the same time in the sense that I wouldn't want it to hinder us from buying out Brouwer. If there are other reasons to not buy him out so be it but that would not be one for me.

- Stone likely won't be here in two years time
- Hamonic wants to play in western Canada and has limited offensive upside so I don't think re-signing him would break the bank
- Everyone wanted to trade Brodie before we dealt Hamilton. I get that things have changed and now we need to keep him but I originally said IF the young guys all meet their potential we SHOULD be able to move him as well
- Kulak was never really part of the discussion as the first post I responded to specifically talked about our top 5 defenceman

If Brouwer needs to go I don't think the fact those three guys are coming off the books in two years time is the reason you don't do it. There are a number of other legitimate reasons not to but that isn't one IMO.

I also explained in following posts the pairings I outlined were mearly to illustrate how I saw their potential not necessarily how things would look in two years time - Treliving is not one who is afraid to make trades so there is also the possibility of that.

IMO Andersson and Valimaki will be NHL regulars within the next 2 seasons which is why I'm not worried about Stone, Brodie and Hamonic coming off the books at the same time.

I get that we could end up being disappointed if they fail to meet their potential but my whole point was I don't think the 1.5 million cap hit penalty, if we decide to buy out Brouwer, is going to disrupt our ability to remain competitive, even if 3 of our current top 5 dmen need a new contract in 2 years time.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

As I explained in my posts that followed the original my whole argument was essentially that I wasn't going to worry about having 3 x 30 year old defenceman coming off the books at the same time in the sense that I wouldn't want it to hinder us from buying out Brouwer. If there are other reasons to not buy him out so be it but that would not be one for me.

- Stone likely won't be here in two years time
- Hamonic wants to play in western Canada and has limited offensive upside so I don't think re-signing him would break the bank
- Everyone wanted to trade Brodie before we dealt Hamilton. I get that things have changed and now we need to keep him but I originally said IF the young guys all meet their potential we SHOULD be able to move him as well
- Kulak was never really part of the discussion as the first post I responded to specifically talked about our top 5 defenceman

If Brouwer needs to go I don't think the fact those three guys are coming off the books in two years time is the reason you don't do it. There are a number of other legitimate reasons not to but that isn't one IMO.

I also explained in following posts the pairings I outlined were mearly to illustrate how I saw their potential not necessarily how things would look in two years time - Treliving is not one who is afraid to make trades so there is also the possibility of that.

IMO Andersson and Valimaki will be NHL regulars within the next 2 seasons which is why I'm not worried about Stone, Brodie and Hamonic coming off the books at the same time.

I get that we could end up being disappointed if they fail to meet their potential but my whole point was I don't think the 1.5 million cap hit penalty, if we decide to buy out Brouwer, is going to disrupt our ability to remain competitive, even if 3 of our current top 5 dmen need a new contract in 2 years time.

I don't even disagree with you, for the most part, just saying it's prudent to put the brakes on the expectations a bit. As management, you have to prepare for the worst possible outcome.

I do think that Stone is blocking the promotion of Andersson, and the time has come to trade him, perhaps for a promising forward prospect, as that pool is getting a bit shallow as demonstrated in CP's rankings this year. If Andersson proves he's ready, hopefully Treliving can pull the trigger on something to make room for him. It would be great if he could move Stone and his salary in the off-season to avoid buying out Brouwer, but the problem is that the buy-out window is open this week, so Treliving has to ask himself whether he is ready to roll the dice now with Andersson. My guess is that he will probably buy out Brouwer now in order to keep his D options open into training camp this year, then make a move with Stone if Andersson has a strong training camp and everyone is healthy.

My dream D pairings in 2 years, if everything went perfectly, would be:

Hanifin-Andersson (two young defenders just starting to enter their prime, with ability to work the PP)
Gio-Kylington (slightly fewer minutes and slightly easier match-ups to extend the career of very capable 36 y.o. defenseman, and putting a young speedy Kylington on the off side but allowing him to learn with a great mentor, much as Brodie did)
Valimaki-Hamonic (assuming Hamonic would re-sign here for a reasonable term and cap hit, and keeping in mind that Valimaki, although having perhaps the highest ceiling of any of our D prospects, will still only be 21 at that time).

You will notice that Stone and Brodie are not in these pairings, but they assume that all of Andersson, Kylington and Valimaki will meet or exceed the team's projections for them at that point in their development, and also no injuries. The failure of any of these three to meet or exceed expectations or the failure of Hanifin to become a first pairing D will mean that nobody is slotted properly, while an injury to any of the starters on the right side will mean that you need to play Kulak on the wrong side (which is a stretch because he doesn't have Brodie's speed or vision) or need to trade assets to acquire someone, since there is literally nobody else in the pipeline now. So this scenario only works if absolutely everything goes right. I'm pretty sure Treliving is going to want at least some insurance, which means that he will need to retain one of Stone or Brodie (and Brodie offers more flexibility because he can play either side if someone goes down).

Personally, I wouldn't mind trading Stone now (eliminating the need for a buyout and the dead cap space consequences) and rolling the dice on Andersson, but I'm not the GM and don't have to face the consequences if someone gets hurt or Andersson doesn't live up to expectations.

Down the road, in 4 years, if everyone lives up to expectations, I would love to see:

Hanifin-Andersson
Valimaki-Kylington
??-Hamonic (the pairings just don't look right without Gio, do they?)

For the record, I have no objections to buying out Brouwer if it allows a very team-friendly and long-term deal with Hanifin to be signed.

[The Boy Wonder]

Gio wont be our top pairing Dman in 2020-21

Thats absolutely ridiculous and terrible player development if true.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

Gio wont be our top pairing Dman in 2020-21

Thats absolutely ridiculous and terrible player development if true.

I agree with you haha if you read all my posts you would see what I was trying to illustrate.

At the end of the day the only guy I can 100% say shouldn't be here in 20-21 is Stone.

Andersson, Valimaki and Kylington will hopefully all be regular NHLers with all of Hanifin, Gio, Hamonic and Brodie still with a great amount of potential to still be here as well.

One also has to consider the potential expansion draft as well which looks like it will happen in the 2020 offseason. You would have to think we will protect:

- Gaudreau
- Monahan
- Tkachuk
- Lindholm
- Backlund
- Bennett?
- Jankowksi?

- Hanifin
-Andersson
- Kylington?

- Parsons?

Leaving UFA's Hamonic, Brodie, Stone, Frolik, Czarnik and Brouwer available. Signed players in Gio, Ryan and Neal will be left available and some intriguing unprotected RFA's will be Gillies, Mangiapane and Foo - all of which could change the way the list ends up within the next 2 years.

Players like Hathaway, Lazar, Kulak, Prout and Rittich likely won't factor much into the process.

It's to my understanding all first and second year professionals will be exempt from the draft which would leave Valimaki and Dube not requiring protection as they will both be finishing up their second pro years respectively.

Alot will change between now and then so this is just a random thought and rough draft for potential expansion that is not meant to be taken too seriously and scrutinized to death.

[Moneyhands23]

Anyone else starting to wonder wtf is holding the hanifin contract up?

Be nice to have it done soon.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Moneyhands23

Anyone else starting to wonder wtf is holding the hanifin contract up?

Be nice to have it done soon.

Term and dollars.

[Robbob]

No need to get to worried yet. Doesn't sound like there are issues, wouldn't surprise me that the principles are pretty much done and all will be done when he gets to Calgary. That way they can do the whole photo op thing with all the new players. If it the calendar month was September than I would be inclined to worry.

[sureLoss]

Prominent RFAs still unsigned:

Larkin, Hanifin, Nylander, Reinhart, Theodore, Morrissey, Nurse.

Nothing to worry about right now.

[Vinny01]

They need to get the Hanifin contract done so they can have the press conference to introduce the new Flames and give them jerseys.

I would assume Hanifin, Lindholm, Neal, and Ryan would be the Flames in attendance

[Toonage]

The only leverage Hanifin has is time, and I doubt he wants to hold out. I agree that they will get it done within the month and have that big presser where they introduce the new guys, and the vintage 3rds. of course.