Alberta man changes gender to save money in car insurance

[Northendzone]

How can we not judge this person, the article clearly states that he changed genders to save on insurance.

To me he is clearly committing fraud, and like anyone who commits fraud, I hope he gets caught.

[Winsor_Pilates]

How is it still ok for insurance rates to differ based on gender though?
If nothing else, this draws attention to a very outdated policy that should no longer exist. Is there anything out there like this that is more expensive for women?

[Northendzone]

Insurance rates can be based on things like age, gender, geography etc.

For example, life insurance is generally less for women, while disability insurance is more.

The simple fact is that the male cohort has more accidents. Especially the younger cohort.

[calgarygringo]

Just remember a lot of what goes on in this industry is all based on statistics and data. They run the crap out of it up down and sideways to find anything that shows a trend. When they do then up we go. Males show a trend of more claims, tickets etc than women so they deem it a higher risk and us guys pay more. Females overall show less so they are a less risk and pay less. That's how it works. There are small factors that give you smaller discounts as they show smaller things that seem to show less claims but it is all about the stats and as far as the insurance companies are concerned they don't lie.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

How can we not judge this person, the article clearly states that he changed genders to save on insurance.

To me he is clearly committing fraud, and like anyone who commits fraud, I hope he gets caught.

Insurance is barely on the legal side of stealing as far as I'm concerned. I'd say the more people that screw over insurance companies the better, yet the insurance companies would just in turn gauge the consumer even more to cover their losses.

Scum

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by calgarygringo

Just remember a lot of what goes on in this industry is all based on statistics and data. They run the crap out of it up down and sideways to find anything that shows a trend. When they do then up we go. Males show a trend of more claims, tickets etc than women so they deem it a higher risk and us guys pay more. Females overall show less so they are a less risk and pay less. That's how it works. There are small factors that give you smaller discounts as they show smaller things that seem to show less claims but it is all about the stats and as far as the insurance companies are concerned they don't lie.

It's not just about stats. I'm sure there are a bunch of risks that show strong correlations to income, but we don't allow insurance companies to vary rates based on income. So it's just a matter of deciding which demographic categories to put in the legitimate box and which to disallow. Some places in the world allow auto insurance rates to vary based on gender, some don't.

[bizaro86]

Are they not allowed to ask income?

I actually suspect credit score would be a better predictor of whether someone is likely to make responsible driving decisions.

[theinfinitejar]

I honestly can't fathom why anyone is upset about this, save for not thinking of it themselves.

Guy found a way to save himself a couple bucks at the expense of an insurance company, good for him.

[puffnstuff]

Originally Posted by theinfinitejar

I honestly can't fathom why anyone is upset about this, save for not thinking of it themselves.

Guy found a way to save himself a couple bucks at the expense of an insurance company, good for her.

Fyp

[OMG!WTF!]

I think the test might come if he ever has to make a claim. He might find himself denied and having to prove his legitimacy in court. That's probably where the fun would end. Pronouns on purpose.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

I think the test might come if he ever has to make a claim. He might find himself denied and having to prove his legitimacy in court. That's probably where the fun would end. Pronouns on purpose.

Alright, let me take the bait. How exactly would this play out? She gets in a car accident and has to give the statement to the adjuster. “I was driving along and the other driver ran a red light and hit me.” The adjuster for the other company gets a statement from their driver and liability is settled. That’s basic the end of it.

Or “well, I was parked in the driveway and there was a huge hailstorm, and a tree fell onto my car.” The end.

The insurer isn’t asking whether you have a penis or vagina, or what you were wearing or things like that. “It says here that you prefer to identify as a woman, but your name is David...how do we know that you aren’t scamming us?” I mean really, how is that going to go over?

[OMG!WTF!]

Alright, let me take the bait. How exactly would this play out? She gets in a car accident and has to give the statement to the adjuster. “I was driving along and the other driver ran a red light and hit me.” The adjuster for the other company gets a statement from their driver and liability is settled. That’s basic the end of it.

Or “well, I was parked in the driveway and there was a huge hailstorm, and a tree fell onto my car.” The end.

The insurer isn’t asking whether you have a penis or vagina, or what you were wearing or things like that. “It says here that you prefer to identify as a woman, but your name is David...how do we know that you aren’t scamming us?” I mean really, how is that going to go over?

Sorry you're feeling "baited" this morning Slava. Your first scenario is not a payout from his insurance company so who cares. Secondly you can create any scenario you want, insurance companies are not in the business of writing a lot of checks. Drop a million dollar at fault claim on their desk and it's a different story. My niece is a private i and all she does is follow insurance claims around. I would assume that insurance companies are aware of this article and would investigate anyone who might set off a bell. I sincerely hope they would. This kind of bs makes life difficult for actual transgendered people. It's why people feel it's necessary to hang out in the wrong washroom. It's why trans people get abused. It's not fair and shouldn't be celebrated much less tolerated. It's fraud. Addressing "David" as she is people being suckered in by a fraud. The guy even says in the article he identifies and lives as a man. I highly doubt insurance companies are going to fall for it as easily. And frankly, I think actual trans women would welcome the investigation.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by theinfinitejar

I honestly can't fathom why anyone is upset about this, save for not thinking of it themselves.

Guy found a way to save himself a couple bucks at the expense of an insurance company, good for him.

I sell personal insurance and I’ll take a shot at this. He’s scamming the system. (Yes, he’s a he despite what his licence says.) Insurance premiums are risk-based. For example, a smoker or someone who heli-skis has higher risk so pays more for life insurance and other forms of personal insurance. Someone who works in a dangerous occupation pays more for disability insurance than does an office worker.

Auto insurance is the same. Younger women have fewer accidents than do younger men, so they pay less. Drivers in big cities have more accidents than do drivers in rural areas. Drivers who have many speeding tickets have more accidents. I believe that these are all legitimate risk factors that must be used in determining premiums.

If this stunt becomes pervasive it will affect all of our premiums. I’d wish that any claims he may make would be denied except that could deny claims for innocent drivers. I think this is insurance fraud and needs to be shut down by the insurers and their lawyers.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Sorry you're feeling "baited" this morning Slava. Your first scenario is not a payout from his insurance company so who cares. Secondly you can create any scenario you want, insurance companies are not in the business of writing a lot of checks. Drop a million dollar at fault claim on their desk and it's a different story. My niece is a private i and all she does is follow insurance claims around. I would assume that insurance companies are aware of this article and would investigate anyone who might set off a bell. I sincerely hope they would. This kind of bs makes life difficult for actual transgendered people. It's why people feel it's necessary to hang out in the wrong washroom. It's why trans people get abused. It's not fair and shouldn't be celebrated much less tolerated. It's fraud. Addressing "David" as she is people being suckered in by a fraud. The guy even says in the article he identifies and lives as a man. I highly doubt insurance companies are going to fall for it as easily. And frankly, I think actual trans women would welcome the investigation.

I don't doubt that the actual transgendered people would welcome the investigation. I just don't see it happening. And yeah, the scenario isn't important, but we're talking about car insurance. there are thousands of claims everyday, and I can't see insurers increasing their ratios and putting people through the grind for something they likely couldn't prove.

In this case, aside from the guy outright admitting his actions, how would you do it? Realistically, a guy who goes to the length of signing an affadavit and changing his sex on his drivers license has made a pretty solid case that he identifies as a woman?

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

I sell personal insurance and I’ll take a shot at this. He’s scamming the system. (Yes, he’s a he despite what his licence says.) Insurance premiums are risk-based. For example, a smoker or someone who heli-skis has higher risk so pays more for life insurance and other forms of personal insurance. Someone who works in a dangerous occupation pays more for disability insurance than does an office worker.

Auto insurance is the same. Younger women have fewer accidents than do younger men, so they pay less. Drivers in big cities have more accidents than do drivers in rural areas. Drivers who have many speeding tickets have more accidents. I believe that these are all legitimate risk factors that must be used in determining premiums.

If this stunt becomes pervasive it will affect all of our premiums. I’d wish that any claims he may make would be denied except that could deny claims for innocent drivers. I think this is insurance fraud and needs to be shut down by the insurers and their lawyers.

But this is the issue with this case; he isn't doing anything illegal. It's immoral, and that's really it. The insurer isn't going to take aim at people who identify as transgendered because it would be a PR nightmare. One false accusation and the blow back would be immense. I'm not even sure how they could do it. So aside from changing the way they rate the policies and how they calculate the risks, it's a non-starter.

[Dan02]

Honestly, I'm still suprised that insurance companies are allowed to blatantly discriminate based on sex. I think this is by far the bigger issue here then one guy gaming the system.

Premiums should be based strictly off driving experience and history. Full stop.

Imagine the uproar if they started basing your premiums off of race too.

In the EU it's been banned since 2012, even our neighboors in Montana have outlawed insurance discrimination based on sex.

[Northendzone]

So my son is now learning to drive. He will be 16 in August, so far he has a perfect driving record, and little history.

Meanwhile, I am 53. I had accidents and tickets in my early 20’s, a speeding ticket when I was 40’ish and good ever since then.

Set some rates for us?

[TorqueDog]

Here's what it boils down to:

For years, men and women have paid different insurance rates because their risk is assessed based off of what we're made to believe are innate differences between the sexes, that there is something about biologically being a male driver that makes you more expensive to insure than a female driver. We've accepted this because, well, it's true.

However, this guy has come along and just by legally changing his gender, something we're admonished to believe is just a social construct, suddenly his insurance drops $1,100 a year. He has not undergone sexual reassignment surgery, he has not undergone any hormone replacement therapy, he hasn't even changed his shirt for a blouse. Nothing has changed that would lower his risk profile, yet his insurance is cheaper.

And this guy is the jerk in this situation?

How about the insurance industry? If we're being charged more for our gender, then it's easy to argue that something that can be changed in a legal process virtually as simple as changing your name is not a sufficient justification to charge people different rates based on it. If we're being charged more for our biological predispositions that come as a result of being of the male or female sex, then changing your gender should not result in a change of premiums.

Perhaps these are the growing pains of trying to adapt to new ways of viewing the world too quickly, that sometimes you end up with these kind of absurdities. But this guy is just pointing out a problem.

Maybe it's time to follow in the EU's footsteps and ban charging people different rates whether they're male or female (women's rates would likely increase). Or maybe insurance companies and governments need to standardize on biological sex and not gender as a means of identification.

I don't know the answer, but it's one hell of an interesting discussion to be had.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Dan02

Honestly, I'm still suprised that insurance companies are allowed to blatantly discriminate based on sex. I think this is by far the bigger issue here then one guy gaming the system.

Premiums should be based strictly off driving experience and history. Full stop.

Imagine the uproar if they started basing your premiums off of race too.

In the EU it's been banned since 2012, even our neighboors in Montana have outlawed insurance discrimination based on sex.

I guess it all depends on how you look at it.

Have you ever met an Actuary? They're Accountants who couldnt handle the excitement.

Its not necessarily 'discrimination' because all they're doing is correlating information. Its straight Data.

As much as people want to live in this Utopian world where everyone is equal the fact of the matter remains that certain factors beyond anyone's control exist and those factors alter likelihood and nature of risk.

For instance this man might self-identify as a woman or an aged mule and God help anyone who disagrees with him because they're clearly luddites and heathens, but if, in reality, he is still physically a middle-aged white guy his risks of congenital heart failure remain statistically the same as any other middle-aged white guy regardless of how he self-identifies.

You can say that women and mules have much lower risk factors of heart disease but at the end of the day those dont really apply. Is that discrimination or just calling a spade a spade?

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

I don't know the answer, but it's one hell of an interesting discussion to be had.

Answer seems pretty simple to me, everyone is treated as an individual regardless of:

race
national or ethnic origin
colour
religion
age
sex
sexual orientation
gender identity or expression
marital status
family status
disability
genetic characteristics
a conviction for which a pardon has been granted or a record suspended

Yes i pulled that list straight off the of the Canadian Human Rights Commission website.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Locke

You can say that women and mules have much lower risk factors of heart disease but at the end of the day those dont really apply. Is that discrimination or just calling a spade a spade?

Completely and totally still discrimination, hiding behind the numbers doesn't change that. The day we live in now everyone is a unique individual.

If the actuarial data supported the claim that drivers of Asian descent have few claims then Caucasian drivers would you support Asian drivers getting lower premiums then Caucasians? What about if gay drivers had few claims then straight drivers?

Everyone would be up in arms and would say it's ridiculous, which is why they should be saying the same thing about age and sex.

Is that discrimination or just calling a spade a spade?

and on a unrelated note, isn't that pretty much the justification every low-key racist uses?