[News] Kulak arb numbers. Kulak asking for $1.15M. Flames countering with 2 way $650k

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by AC

It was yesterday. Arbitration decision within 48 hours as sureLoss said a few posts up.

Maybe this will help

[TheScorpion]

It's disingenuous to say that prospects passed Wotherspoon on the depth chart last season because in reality he was Stockton's best defender for most of the year. It was in previous years that his stock has fallen and he couldn't recover in time

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Freeway

Prout is this year's Bartkowski, no more, no less. He's a body that won't be harmed if he's sitting in the press box for 75 games, and he's enough of a veteran that he won't pRout about it.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

It's disingenuous to say that prospects passed Wotherspoon on the depth chart last season because in reality he was Stockton's best defender for most of the year. It was in previous years that his stock has fallen and he couldn't recover in time

Disingenuous? No. Wotherspoon may have been Stockton's best defenceman last year, but he appeared to have stalled in his development or even reached his ceiling. He just wasn't showing that he was more than a tweener. Kylington and Andersson were improving rapidly, and Valimaki was not even in Stockton. By the end of the season, it's quite clear that Flames' management thought more highly of all three of those prospects than of Wotherspoon, and decided it was time to cut bait.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

It's disingenuous to say that prospects passed Wotherspoon on the depth chart last season because in reality he was Stockton's best defender for most of the year. It was in previous years that his stock has fallen and he couldn't recover in time

Which reality is that? Seems like the Flames think Andersson was one of the top defenders in the league and not Wotherspoon. Do media think Wotherspoon was their best defender? Do fans? Does analytics?

I didn’t watch any Stockton myself. But I find the claim a bit dubious.

And even if Wotherspoon was the top defender doesn’t mean prospects didn’t pass him. Excelling in the minors doesn’t necessarily means your game translates to the nhl better than other prospects. Wotherspoon May have plateaued as an above average AHL defencemen while the younger kids have better skills that translate to nhl success.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I guess we just disagree.

His agent would have been smart to turn the two way qualifier into a one way at league minimum.

Well, the irony is we probably agree on that. However, there's really no evidence to support the fact that the Flames were willing to offer anything other than a two-way contract. That's what their qualifying offer was and their arbitration number was. My point has been pretty much all argument that the Flames didn't want to give him a one-way contract, so there's not much an agent can do if they would not budge...except hope the arbitrator agrees that he deserves one (which I think he will).

And still, Kulak is a fringe-NHL player. He played on a team with weak defensive depth so he only had to beat out Wotherspoon really for the job. It was a favourable situation, but as clearing waivers shows he isn't in the position to bank on a future NHL career. And more concerning for Kulak are the prospects that are now knocking on the door. Valimaki, Andersson, Kylington, all it takes is one to unseat him.

Realistically, this could be his last shot at a major contract. It's easy for us to sit back and be his armchair agent but an arbitrator awarding him ~$800K/year guaranteed contract is nothing to scoff at. Not when he could just as easily be the next Wotherspoon (or any hundreds of other fringe-NHL players who don't make it) and find himself in the AHL if he had signed what the Flames want, or God forbid, get injured and find himself out of a career all together. Certainly can't fault him if a guaranteed contract is what he's after, it has the potential for set him up for life without having to "bank on himself." Some people are just risk adverse, and that's fine.

It's just a strange situation when you think about a two-way contract. Imagine getting promoted to a manager position in a company making solid cash but having an unpaid hotshot intern breathing down your neck. An intern that the bosses love, have been grooming him for a management role since he got there and then telling you "if we like him more, you're going to become the unpaid intern." It would be easy why people would not want to go that route if they had other options, even if the reward may not be as high.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Well, the irony is we probably agree on that. However, there's really no evidence to support the fact that the Flames were willing to offer anything other than a two-way contract. That's what their qualifying offer was and their arbitration number was. My point has been pretty much all argument that the Flames didn't want to give him a one-way contract, so there's not much an agent can do if they would not budge...except hope the arbitrator agrees that he deserves one (which I think he will).

Sure but you don't have any evidence that the Flames either a) had offered a one way in direction negotiations or b) always had the two way to one way move as a yield to get league minimum.

All we know is the two sides entry point to arbitration and the qualifying offer.

It would make more sense to me that they'd be after league minimum more than a two way contract given his waiver eligibility.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Which reality is that? Seems like the Flames think Andersson was one of the top defenders in the league and not Wotherspoon. Do media think Wotherspoon was their best defender? Do fans? Does analytics?

I didn’t watch any Stockton myself. But I find the claim a bit dubious.

And even if Wotherspoon was the top defender doesn’t mean prospects didn’t pass him. Excelling in the minors doesn’t necessarily means your game translates to the nhl better than other prospects. Wotherspoon May have plateaued as an above average AHL defencemen while the younger kids have better skills that translate to nhl success.

I didn't deny that prospects had passed Wotherspoon. Actually, I'm in agreement that he was passed -- long ago. The part that I called "disingenuous" was the assertion that he was only passed last year.

However, he was Stockton's #1 last year. He logged the most time and played on both the PK and PP units. That much is true.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Sure but you don't have any evidence that the Flames either a) had offered a one way in direction negotiations or b) always had the two way to one way move as a yield to get league minimum.

No, but I was arguing that was likely the holdup prior to the numbers coming out. Circumstantial evidence supports that fact. Most notably the amount of players on one-way contracts and the amount of prospects who we believe could make the team. The Flames had no reason to want to sign a one-way contract if they believe it was very possible Kulak ended up in the AHL - especially when they know Kulak isn't going to break the bank in the arbitration numbers. It's a business, they don't want to throw away unnecessary money. It's Occam's razor. Likewise, Kulak had no reason to sign a two-way contract if he was confident that he could be awarded a one-way contract if he went to arbitration. And that's the crux of the argument from the sides.

But you've suggested that the agent had screwed up a couple times, where there's no real reason to suggest that he had so there should be more onus on you to provide support that the Flames had or would have offered a one-way contract.

Originally Posted by Bingo

It would make more sense to me that they'd be after league minimum more than a two way contract given his waiver eligibility.

Why? They've already put Kulak on waivers, they are clearly not afraid of losing him on it. Especially not when the season is about to start and every team sneaks through waivers a player or two of Kulak's caliber. Kulak could still impress at camp, still make the team, still become a bonafide NHL regular. But the Flames wanted to keep their options available, and one way to do that was a two-way. It's a business, if there's a way to cut cost, they'll do it.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

No, but I was arguing that was likely the holdup prior to the numbers coming out. Circumstantial evidence supports that fact. Most notably the amount of players on one-way contracts and the amount of prospects who we believe could make the team. The Flames had no reason to want to sign a one-way contract if they believe it was very possible Kulak ended up in the AHL - especially when they know Kulak isn't going to break the bank in the arbitration numbers. It's a business, they don't want to throw away unnecessary money. It's Occam's razor. Likewise, Kulak had no reason to sign a two-way contract if he was confident that he could be awarded a one-way contract if he went to arbitration. And that's the crux of the argument from the sides.

But you've suggested that the agent had screwed up a couple times, where there's no real reason to suggest that he had so there should be more onus on you to provide support that the Flames had or would have offered a one-way contract.



Why? They've already put Kulak on waivers, they are clearly not afraid of losing him on it. Especially not when the season is about to start and every team sneaks through waivers a player or two of Kulak's caliber. Kulak could still impress at camp, still make the team, still become a bonafide NHL regular. But the Flames wanted to keep their options available, and one way to do that was a two-way. It's a business, if there's a way to cut cost, they'll do it.

I think the onus is solved by common sense.

The only way the Flames care about a one way versus a two way for a player under a million bucks is if ownership is sweating about the actual dollars, as it wouldn't impact the bottom line.

We saw it with the Glass contract last year, so clearly it wasn't a big deal then.

But they are tight and need to keep contract levels down for support players so wanting league minimum for Kulak is a clear aim.

If Kulak is competing with two players that already have contracts signed for dollars greater than that of league minimum it then leads to common sense that his best bet is to be the cheapest.

I don't consider any of that a real leap.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The only way the Flames care about a one way versus a two way for a player under a million bucks is if ownership is sweating about the actual dollars, as it wouldn't impact the bottom line.

There's a significant difference between sweating about actual dollars and caring about actual dollars. I don't know why it's so hard to understand that businesses do care about dollars. Murray Edwards has shown he isn't running a charity organization, and the ramification of offering any Tom, Dick or Bret a one-way as an RFA even if they aren't locks to make the team could be a bad precedent to set. Most importantly Kulak doesn't have much of any leverage. Either he accepts the Flames two-way contract offers, or he is given a near league minimum offer from arbitration. Not much reason for the Flames to offer a one-way contract, especially for a player they clearly don't care if he was claimed.

And it's just bizarre to say it wouldn't impact the bottom line. Of course Kulak at 650-850K playing in the AHL would have an impact compared to Kulak making 100K-250K playing in the AHL. There's no room to argue it wouldn't.

Originally Posted by Bingo

We saw it with the Glass contract last year, so clearly it wasn't a big deal then.

UFA contract where the player is (for whatever reason) lured into the organization is a poor parallel to make. And how can you say it wasn't a mistake they wouldn't want to avoid in the future? I can all but guarantee that the Flames do not want to be paying several one-way contracts in the AHL if they don't have to. And the Flames were willing to pay 4.5M for Brouwer, that doesn't mean they want to do it again.

I think it comes down to you not believing that the Flames like money, or Kulak if you suggest him taking the least amount possible is also good for him. It's nice that you're not materialistic and idealistic, but usually the cash in contracts are pretty significant point of contention.

[SeanCharles]

I'm a pretty big fan of Kulak as I've always liked his skillset and figured he could become an NHLer if developed properly.

That being said, Hanafin, Andersson, Valimaki and Kylington all look to have a promising future in Calgary and they all have significantly more upside as well as being younger.

Throw in the fact Gio looks to be here for the long haul and there are still 2 years remaining on each of the Stone, Brodie and Hamonic deals and there doesn't look to be much room.

The most logical outcome for the future of our d-core will not include Kulak or Stone who will be displaced by the youngsters.

Hanafin-Brodie
Valimaki-Andersson
Kylington-Hamonic

Still have Gio to fit in there..

I think Hamonic will re-sign here and given our dearth of RHed shots now that Hamilton and Fox are no longer here it seems like a logical move. Not only that but our d group is primarily guys less known to be physical so keeping a guy like Hammer around will prove invaluable.

[thymebalm]

This is one arbitration case where I think the team has all the leverage and the likely decision will fall a lot closer to the clubs offer than the players ask.

Kulak is the definition of a league minimum salary. Fringe player, waiver fodder, no point production, nothing to separate him from any of the other guys at the bottom of the league. If Kulak doesn’t deserve the league minimum than nobody does really. He’ll be lucky to get back to or above his original qualifying offer through this process. I don’t think it hurts the relationship between player and club as much as he’s going to feel like his agent wasted his time.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

There's a significant difference between sweating about actual dollars and caring about actual dollars. I don't know why it's so hard to understand that businesses do care about dollars. Murray Edwards has shown he isn't running a charity organization, and the ramification of offering any Tom, Dick or Bret a one-way as an RFA even if they aren't locks to make the team could be a bad precedent to set. Most importantly Kulak doesn't have much of any leverage. Either he accepts the Flames two-way contract offers, or he is given a near league minimum offer from arbitration. Not much reason for the Flames to offer a one-way contract, especially for a player they clearly don't care if he was claimed.

And it's just bizarre to say it wouldn't impact the bottom line. Of course Kulak at 650-850K playing in the AHL would have an impact compared to Kulak making 100K-250K playing in the AHL. There's no room to argue it wouldn't.

UFA contract where the player is (for whatever reason) lured into the organization is a poor parallel to make. And how can you say it wasn't a mistake they wouldn't want to avoid in the future? I can all but guarantee that the Flames do not want to be paying several one-way contracts in the AHL if they don't have to. And the Flames were willing to pay 4.5M for Brouwer, that doesn't mean they want to do it again.

I think it comes down to you not believing that the Flames like money, or Kulak if you suggest him taking the least amount possible is also good for him. It's nice that you're not materialistic and idealistic, but usually the cash in contracts are pretty significant point of contention.

Ok I give up.

You just don’t seem to get what I’m saying and I’m guessing our back and forth is boring the group to death.


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[nik-]

two men enter, one man leaves

two men enter, one man leaves

[tsquared1967]

I am surprised at the contract that Troy Stecher got from the Canucks in comparison to the hate some have on the potential contract that Kulak is asking for.

Tucker Poolman got $775k/yr from the Jets.

Madison Bowey got $1M/yr for the Caps.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by tsquared1967

I am surprised at the contract that Troy Stecher got from the Canucks in comparison to the hate some have on the potential contract that Kulak is asking for.

Tucker Poolman got $775k/yr from the Jets.

Madison Bowey got $1M/yr for the Caps.

Hate? Is there actually any hate for the potential contract? Weird read of the thread.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

I'm a pretty big fan of Kulak as I've always liked his skillset and figured he could become an NHLer if developed properly.

That being said, Hanafin, Andersson, Valimaki and Kylington all look to have a promising future in Calgary and they all have significantly more upside as well as being younger.

Throw in the fact Gio looks to be here for the long haul and there are still 2 years remaining on each of the Stone, Brodie and Hamonic deals and there doesn't look to be much room.

The most logical outcome for the future of our d-core will not include Kulak or Stone who will be displaced by the youngsters.

Hanafin-Brodie
Valimaki-Andersson
Kylington-Hamonic

Still have Gio to fit in there..

I think Hamonic will re-sign here and given our dearth of RHed shots now that Hamilton and Fox are no longer here it seems like a logical move. Not only that but our d group is primarily guys less known to be physical so keeping a guy like Hammer around will prove invaluable.

When I look at the 3 names of Stone,Brodie and hamonic I figure 2 of them are traded before their contracts run out. Would be great to get value for them with talented prospects stepping. In. Really it's what a rebuild is supposed to do/have.

[dammage79]

My take on Kulak is he wants a bigger role. Flames think he is easily replaceable. Tough call I think because Kulak is serviceable but there's some players coming that will quickly out rank him.

I think Kulak is good for the depth of the team but not much else. I think for him to find a sure footing in the NHL he'd be best used on another team.

[Poe969]

Sign him and send him down as insurance. I hope he gets $725