[News] Kulak arb numbers. Kulak asking for $1.15M. Flames countering with 2 way $650k

[Strange Brew]

Hopefully the Flames don’t let $200k be the difference in icing the best lineup possible.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Hopefully the Flames don’t let $200k be the difference in icing the best lineup possible.

Quite right. If spending an extra $200,000 on Kulak is going to use up cap room that could otherwise be used to improve the team via trades during the season, they should not spend it.

Oh, wait. That wasn't what you were saying, was it?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Hopefully the Flames don’t let $200k be the difference in icing the best lineup possible.

I have to agree with Jay. Kulak isnt going to make or break anything.

Ultimately, the impression that I get is that management feels that this spot is open for competition. Kulak wants it locked in and I just dont think thats going to happen because there are guys gunning for it.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yes and no.

A two way contract under $1M would save them some actual dollars as he'd have an AHL salary paying quite a bit less, but it's really not that important in this case as;

a) he'd have to clear waivers
b) at under $1M he wouldn't effect the cap if sent down.

The two way thing would be the wrong hill to die on for the agent in this case.

You're focusing too much from the team's position and not from Kulak's perspective. To the point you're missing the actual point of a contract. A player like Kulak doesn't care about cap-hit, he wants money.

So how is the two-way thing the wrong hill to die on? It could be the difference between Kulak making ~800-1M and making ~100K-200K if he were to be sent down. We're talking of upwards of 10x the difference. It was the only hill to die on for his agent. Everything else is so secondary compared to the one-way contract.

And contract or no contract, he did just clear waivers so it's not like he can be sure he wouldn't again...

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

So how is the two-way thing the wrong hill to die on? It could be the difference between Kulak making ~800-1M and making ~100K-200K if he were to be sent down. We're talking of upwards of 10x the difference. It was the only hill to die on for his agent. Everything else is so secondary compared to the one-way contract.

That's only true if you think this is the last contract of Kulak's career. In his position, I would be a lot more worried about having the best possible chance to set myself up for my next contract.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Which would also be a one-way contract. That way they would need to qualify him at a one-way contract next time as well.

Not to mention being around NHL players, coaches and trainers, and showing NHL teams what you can do in the NHL.

A one-way contract is paramount for Kulak So no wonder he is going to arbitration if he was never offered one.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Possession exits occur after someone on your team – usually not the player who performs the exit – takes the puck away from the opposing team. Defence is the thing that happens when the other team has possession.

You seem to be using statistics that do not even measure the primary job Stone is paid to do.

No, I'm not, in the context of what I was discussing. Read the post I was responding to.

Originally Posted by Jay Random

That's only true if you think this is the last contract of Kulak's career. In his position, I would be a lot more worried about having the best possible chance to set myself up for my next contract.

In what world is giving the team more flexibility to send him down without salary consequence giving himself a better chance of setting him up for his next NHL contract. Did Wotherspoon's two-way contract benefit him last year over Bartkowski's one-way contract? Wotherspoon was probably the better defenseman last year, but the contract nature dictated who would play in the NHL and who would play in the AHL.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Bartkowski did have a, slight, two-way contract. 650K in the NHL and 400K in the AHL.

Wotherspoon had 650K in the NHL and 160K in the AHL. So a savings of 240K by having Wotherspoon in the minors over Bartkowski. Whether that was entirely for the money we can't know for sure. But I believe that, as you suggested, had the contracts been reversed, it's very possible that so would the situations for the players. $250,000 is not chump change - not even to an NHL team.

[Hockey Fan #751]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Any team could have just had him for free off waivers ...

Why would a team give up a pick now ? You think a team values saving a few hundred thousand on a contract as a 2-4th round pick ...

Edmonton did that with Montoya. Although that was Edmonton.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

No, I'm not. Read the post I was responding to.

I read it. The fact remains that possession exits are not a good measure of individual defensive ability.

In what world is giving the team more flexibility to send him down without salary consequence giving himself a better chance of setting him up for his next NHL contract.

That is not the only point in dispute before the arbitrator, as you know perfectly well. By asking for $1.15 million, Wotherspoon is virtually begging the team to bury his contract and replace him with a younger player with a lower cap hit.

I note that various posters pointed this out, but you did not take exception until I agreed with them; at which point you carried on as if the point had never been made. Very sloppy of you.

Did Wotherspoon's two-way contract benefit him last year over Bartkowski's one-way contract? Wotherspoon was probably the better defenseman last year, but the contract nature dictated who would play in the NHL and who would play in the AHL.

No, what dictated that was that the team wanted Wotherspoon to play and didn't mind if Bartkowski sat on the bench. As it happened, Wotherspoon played in 67 AHL games, and Bartkowski played only 18 NHL games. Being better than Bartkowski was not enough to put Wotherspoon in the regular NHL lineup.

[Bingo]

The team makes the decisions so the agent should look at it from that standpoint.

My point though was that the two biggest reasons to send a guy down on a two way are not in play in this situation.

They can still lose him on waivers and they don’t gain cap relief.

He would have had a helping hand in making him more desirable to take less money


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Bingo

My point though was that the two biggest reasons to send a guy down on a two way are not in play in this situation.

They can still lose him on waivers and they don’t gain cap relief.

He would have had a helping hand in making him more desirable to take less money

But the ONLY reason to sign someone to a two-way contract is the belief that they may play in the AHL. You could easily make the inverse of the case that, if neither situation is at play, the Flames have no reason to fight for a two-way contract. Yet here they are doing so.

So, it's obviously on the table - or the Flames believe it is. Regardless of cap relief or waiver eligibility.

Also, I disagree with your premise that the two biggest reasons to send a guy down on a two way are those two considerations. There's a third reason, and it's actual cold hard cash. Whether it's Prout or Kulak sitting in the pressbox as 7th spot (if that ends up being the case), it's not going to affect the season. So the player, in this case potentially Kulak, that can save a team upwards of 700K by playing in the AHL is the one who would be sent down.

Depending on how you look at it, if I told my company I could save them 700K without changing efficiency much, I would be promoted pretty quickly I imagine. Inversely, if I cost my company 700K by signing a contract that didn't change the overall product, they would not be too pleased with me while they are walking me out. 700K, is not some chump change that the Flames would overlook. If the end of training camp the Flames have these two choices:

Giordano-Brodie
Hanifin-Hamonic
Anderson-Stone
Kulak

Prout in the minors for 26M or

Giordano-Brodie
Hanifin-Hamonic
Anderson-Stone
Prout

Kulak in the minors for 25M.

Pretty easy choice for the Flames to make, and why would Kulak put himself in that position if he didn't have to.

You don't seem to think that 700K (or whatever the number difference may end up being) is worth consideration for Kulak or the Flames to fight over with respect to this one-way and two-way contract. So I don't think we're going to agree here, but if that's the case I can only imagine how much money CP is bringing in

EDIT: And I'm not saying it's a forgone conclusion that Kulak doesn't play himself on the team. I'm just saying that the Flames want the budget flexibility that if Kulak hasn't separated himself from Prout and a prospect makes the team, they have the option of sending Kulak down without worrying about paying him 800K+ in salary.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

No, what dictated that was that the team wanted Wotherspoon to play and didn't mind if Bartkowski sat on the bench. As it happened, Wotherspoon played in 67 AHL games, and Bartkowski played only 18 NHL games. Being better than Bartkowski was not enough to put Wotherspoon in the regular NHL lineup.

Why did the Flames want to play Wotherspoon? They were so invested in Wotherspoon's development in the AHL that they didn't even bother to offer him a 700K, two-way contract to qualify him?

[puckedoff]

Wait are you guys arguing the same thing?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Why did the Flames want to play Wotherspoon? They were so invested in Wotherspoon's development in the AHL that they didn't even bother to offer him a 700K, two-way contract to qualify him?

Wotherspoon had demonstrated in repeated callups that he was not yet a full-time NHLer, but the team believed he might still develop into one. Either his performance in the AHL last season convinced them that this was no longer an option, or he had been passed on the depth chart by so many other prospects that they no longer considered him worth keeping. Probably the latter, I imagine.

Conditions change over time. The decision the Flames made about Wotherspoon in 2017 does not bind them to repeat the same decision in 2018.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Wotherspoon had demonstrated in repeated callups that he was not yet a full-time NHLer, but the team believed he might still develop into one. Either his performance in the AHL last season convinced them that this was no longer an option, or he had been passed on the depth chart by so many other prospects that they no longer considered him worth keeping. Probably the latter, I imagine.

That very well could be the case, and I won't say it's not.

But, maybe with two-fringe NHL players in Bartowski and Wotherspoon, the Flames simply made the move that saved them the most money. Why do people think that the Flames are so adverse to money? Have they not seen their true face in the arena debacle? They are a business and operate as such.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Quite right. If spending an extra $200,000 on Kulak is going to use up cap room that could otherwise be used to improve the team via trades during the season, they should not spend it.

Oh, wait. That wasn't what you were saying, was it?

No. I’m not saying that you pay Kulak any more than what he is worth. So in that sense the $200k matters very much.

But what I’m not on board with the idea is that an NHL agent should be recommending to his player that he accept less money to improve his chances of making an NHL roster.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

But the ONLY reason to sign someone to a two-way contract is the belief that they may play in the AHL. You could easily make the inverse of the case that, if neither situation is at play, the Flames have no reason to fight for a two-way contract. Yet here they are doing so.

So, it's obviously on the table - or the Flames believe it is. Regardless of cap relief or waiver eligibility.

Also, I disagree with your premise that the two biggest reasons to send a guy down on a two way are those two considerations. There's a third reason, and it's actual cold hard cash. Whether it's Prout or Kulak sitting in the pressbox as 7th spot (if that ends up being the case), it's not going to affect the season. So the player, in this case potentially Kulak, that can save a team upwards of 700K by playing in the AHL is the one who would be sent down.

Depending on how you look at it, if I told my company I could save them 700K without changing efficiency much, I would be promoted pretty quickly I imagine. Inversely, if I cost my company 700K by signing a contract that didn't change the overall product, they would not be too pleased with me while they are walking me out. 700K, is not some chump change that the Flames would overlook. If the end of training camp the Flames have these two choices:

Giordano-Brodie
Hanifin-Hamonic
Anderson-Stone
Kulak

Prout in the minors for 26M or

Giordano-Brodie
Hanifin-Hamonic
Anderson-Stone
Prout

Kulak in the minors for 25M.

Pretty easy choice for the Flames to make, and why would Kulak put himself in that position if he didn't have to.

You don't seem to think that 700K (or whatever the number difference may end up being) is worth consideration for Kulak or the Flames to fight over with respect to this one-way and two-way contract. So I don't think we're going to agree here, but if that's the case I can only imagine how much money CP is bringing in

EDIT: And I'm not saying it's a forgone conclusion that Kulak doesn't play himself on the team. I'm just saying that the Flames want the budget flexibility that if Kulak hasn't separated himself from Prout and a prospect makes the team, they have the option of sending Kulak down without worrying about paying him 800K+ in salary.

I don't get asking for the two way either to be honest, but maybe it's something to give up for league minimum, or maybe it's frustration from a contract negotiation that should have gone easier than it has.

We really don't know.

$700K isn't really up for grabs here though is it?

The guy either has an NHL job going forward or he doesn't. Playing 80 games this season goes a lot further to ensuring there are more seasons then seeing yourself waived and sent to the farm hurting your career.

Bottom line Kulak's best chip this season was having a salary under Valimaki at 894K and Kylington at $714K

The agent may have botched just that.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

That very well could be the case, and I won't say it's not.

But, maybe with two-fringe NHL players in Bartowski and Wotherspoon, the Flames simply made the move that saved them the most money. Why do people think that the Flames are so adverse to money? Have they not seen their true face in the arena debacle? They are a business and operate as such.

Bartkowski was 29 years old at the start of last season. Wotherspoon was 24. Believe me, the money was not the only factor.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Bartkowski was 29 years old at the start of last season. Wotherspoon was 24. Believe me, the money was not the only factor.

So, they wanted to develop Wotherspoon because they were so high on him...and to do so they put him through waivers where any team could have grabbed him?

No, Wotherspoon was not highly regarded by the Flames (for on-ice purposes). They put him on waivers and played him in the AHL because of that.