#Retire14

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by New Era

Fleury, OTOH, was the antithesis of Vernon. Never grew up and continued to slag the Flames every opportunity he got. With Fleury it was never about the team or the city, it was about him, him, and him. Fleury was a great player for a short period of time, but he was a mouth piece and malcontent his entire career. Sadly, Fleury never got past himself and looked at things from the larger perspective. Fleury was a great talent, but he was - still is - a horrible human being.

I'm sorry, but this is out of line - and untrue in my experience.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by New Era

Fleury was a great talent, but he was - still is - a horrible human being.

I know his parents and they talk often about the things he is doing in his life now and the contribution he is making to society. He is far from that person you describe him to be.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It's about to be three in ~50 years, so ahead of pace.

Forgot Vernon was actually retired, was thinking he was part of the Forever a Flame.

What did I miss that it's about to be 3? I thought they were only doing the FAF bs? (note - I haven't heard the sound bite in the OP yet).

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by New Era

Fleury was a great talent, but he was - still is - a horrible human being.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Gaudreau is a Ninja]

https://youtu.be/GxFCyZ0kjnQ. (Pretty sweet video)

Yes to Fleury! Top 5 player in Flames history and has done an amazing job turning his life around.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Doesn't deserve to have his jersey retired. No, he was not the 2nd best Flame of all time - Iginla and MacInnis were the two best Flames of all time.


Why don't I want his number retired? He has been terrible as a Flames alumni criticizing the Flames, but more importantly, he was rather a d-bag for a team mate.


Sure, he had substance abuse issues and a horrible story. But he played drunk. Is that being a good team mate? I remember some of his team mates (Roberts? maybe misremembering here) disliking him.



As well, I will forever remember a story in the Herald during his playing days here under coach Brian Sutter. He basically stated something like: "Practice makes me tired. I don't want to practice. I don't need to practice like the rest of my team does" - something like that.


Sorry, but he will never get a vote from me in retiring his number. His number should be in usage. He shouldn't be retired.

Things might be better in the league now with substance and alcohol abuse.

But don't kid yourself. At one point in time, the whole team went out for too many drinks after games and many played with hangovers the next day.

We are more compassionate as a society and sports fans these days and offer help instead of slamming the individual for an addiction. McGratton, Poirier, and Ferland immediately come to mind.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I'm sorry, but this is out of line - and untrue in my experience.

My experience is quite opposite of yours, especially while doing charitable work. I will walk the comment back and focus it on his displays of character in regards to the team and city, more so than his life choices.

[Realistic]

I remember Fleury making a comment a number of years ago, after he left the Flames, that “he was the only talent that team ever had” or something very close to that. I lost all respect for him after that comment.

I realize he went through some very difficult times but you don’t need to make disparaging comments like that to an organization that did so much for your career and DID have a lot of talent over the years (Gilmour, Mullen, McInnis, Iginla, MacDonald, Vernon, Macoun) to name a few!

[GordonBlue]

at a certain point you have to point to what he did on the ice for the team and not what he may have done off of it.

if you're talking about character or substance abuse, at least half the hall of fame should be kicked out.

considering what happened to him when young, I cut him a ton of slack. especially in the environment he was in hockey in the 80's away from home.

I respect he's come as far as he has as a person.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Realistic

I remember Fleury making a comment a number of years ago, after he left the Flames, that “he was the only talent that team ever had” or something very close to that. I lost all respect for him after that comment.

I realize he went through some very difficult times but you don’t need to make disparaging comments like that to an organization that did so much for your career and DID have a lot of talent over the years (Gilmour, Mullen, McInnis, Iginla, MacDonald, Vernon, Macoun) to name a few!

you can't forgive a guy and let it go for a few comments he made when mentally ill and suffering from addictions?
how big of you.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Parallex

It's not going to happen. Yes, yes, yes... by career achievements he should both have his number retired (none of that "Forever a Flame" malarkey) and be in the Hall of Fame... but Theo never crossed a bridge that he didn't think would look great on fire.

I am quoting this post because I think this probably encapsulates best why Fleury's relationship with the Flames remains strained. At this point, it is less to do about his career achievements and his significance for the franchise during a period of dire recollection, and it is more about his own personal decorum and the value of his relationships with the gatekeepers.

Rightly or wrongly, propriety matters in these situations, and there is a considerable amount of noise about Fleury's demeanour and interactions when out of the public eye to suggest that he may not be endearing himself to the right people and under the best circumstances. I don't have a problem with that. Jersey retirement is an ultra selective honour that extends well beyond on-ice accomplishments.

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by redforever

But don't kid yourself. At one point in time, the whole team went out for too many drinks after games and many played with hangovers the next day.

.

Can confirm this...back in the day sme of them used to come down to Dicken's pub quite often and get hammered only to play HNIC the next night.

[direwolf]

My favorite Flame growing up. He should absolutely have his jersey retired.

As for this bulls**t about him being a terrible person, I had the pleasure of meeting him once following one of his speaking engagements, and he couldn't have been nicer or more generous with his time. Take that as you will.

Sure, he was a cocky SOB during his playing days, but we now know that he was dealing with some serious issues at that time, which led to substance abuse, depression, and attempted suicide. The guy has come a long way since then and deserves to be recognized for his on-ice achievements.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by direwolf

...As for this bulls**t about him being a terrible person, I had the pleasure of meeting him once following one of his speaking engagements, and he couldn't have been nicer or more generous with his time. Take that as you will...

As an anecdote. These sorts of personal testimonials do not really move the needle in this discussion since there have been others that are less glowing. It's probably best to discount them all as fairly irrelevant.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

As an anecdote. These sorts of personal testimonials do not really move the needle in this discussion since there have been others that are less glowing. It's probably best to discount them all as fairly irrelevant.

So if we discount them all then the mans number should clearly be in the rafters.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

So if we discount them all then the mans number should clearly be in the rafters.

If the only measure is his on ice accomplishments, but I really don't believe it is. I would argue that there is a lot more to this that escapes our notice.

[direwolf]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

As an anecdote. These sorts of personal testimonials do not really move the needle in this discussion since there have been others that are less glowing. It's probably best to discount them all as fairly irrelevant.

Fair enough. That's why I said "take that as you will." My point is that while the guy had issues back in the day and may have acted like a jerk on occasion, he's clearly come a long way since then. Particularly with his work over the last few years supporting victims of abuse. He seems to have mellowed out quite a bit.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I find the whole Theo thing to be hard to understand
- On one hand the organization has shown no intent to honor Theo
- On the other hand, no one has worn 14 since Theo. Is that just coincidence or is there some sort of policy in place?
- You've got a guy like Nieuwy who HAS been honored yet his number has been worn.

So a lot of confusing messages

For what its worth I think overall the Flames do a horrible job of the stuff
- The entire forever a flame program is lame. Just retire the numbers or don't. Half steps are annoying
- The banners are poorly designed and inconsistent. The visual of the rows of banners in the dome don't look nearly as good as they should. Take them all down, and simplify the design and put up ones that look the same for pete's sake.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

As an anecdote. These sorts of personal testimonials do not really move the needle in this discussion since there have been others that are less glowing. It's probably best to discount them all as fairly irrelevant.

Originally Posted by dissentowner

So if we discount them all then the mans number should clearly be in the rafters.

Well, a lot depends on the manner in which he deals behind the scenes with the team and its owners and management, because the decision is theirs at the end of the day. I've no doubt that in most public interactions or dealing one on one with people meeting him for charities, etc. he is perfectly nice - who isn't? It really comes down to how he deals privately with the folks in charge and perhaps that relationship just isn't good. He sure doesn't seem to be involved with the team or the alumni like guys like Berezan or Regher.

[nik-]

A place along the wall in the concourse honoring those second tier Flames players would be much better for Forever a Flame. A number should never go into the rafters unless it's a full retirement.