Special Teams 2018-2019

[bax]

Originally Posted by Red

I use many prospects to compare because we get all giddy about them until they become 20, 22 - and dissapear to our disappointment.
This guy is 25. A definition of a long shot. Yet some put him on the top line and in this thread he is a top 9 with PP time.
How is this guy a better bet than Mangipane (yes another hopeful)?
Dont see anyone guaranteening Mangipane a top 9 spot. Not a new shiny toy?

I just dont get the hype. And definetely dont get those so upset that I put doubt on his guy.
But just step back and ask yourself. A tiny 25 year old with 0 success at this level is seen as a regular top 9 player for the Flames. Reasonable or delusional? Which way does the needle move?

Have you even watched Czarnik play? That's the appeal. He has never been put in an offensive situation in the NHL despite being a standout offensive player at every other level. The Flames will give him a shot. Lets see what happens

[Red]

Originally Posted by bax

You're not even making sense anymore. So far in this thread you have compared Czarnik to Foo, Yamamoto, and Arnold, despite no similarities between those players and their situations. You have mentioned that every teams has a player like Czarnik (why did 24 teams reach out to him?). You have moved the goal posts from "let's see if he makes the NHL" to "being a top 9 forward with PP ice time". You have called people delusional and morons, yet you ignore every piece of evidence that has been thrown your way.

It's okay to doubt a player and think he won't succeed. There is no harm there, but you appear to have a very large misunderstanding of the situation here. You keep claiming that people think he will be a star, which isn't the case at all.

If he breaks out, people are expecting 30-45 points of depth scoring. Nothing outrageous. People are pencilling him into the line up and on the second PP unit because Treliving and Peters have all but confirmed he will get those opportunities.

If it works out, great. If it doesn't than no harm no foul. Nobody has said he is a sure thing. I have no idea why you are so hell bent on him being an AHL player.

Wow.
1. Did not say he is an AHL player.
2. it was said that he was guaranteed a spot on the team. So yes, someone said that he was a sure thing.
3. I have not moved posts. From the begining i said i liked the signing. I just didnt agree with Austins nonsense. Yes. I said nonsense.
4. The comparisons are to illustrate how difficult it is to predict prospects. I do not correlate eye color or height or wharever to project success. Some did here comparing this to how vegas found the dimonds in the rough. Sorry. Does not apply to reality.

Again i ask. Do you believe that he should be guaranteed a top 9 plus PP time? If you dont then you agree with me. Quite the pretzel.
This has beem my beef. Dont agree? Show me where i made conflicting comments.

Make sense now?

[Red]

Originally Posted by bax

Have you even watched Czarnik play? That's the appeal. He has never been put in an offensive situation in the NHL despite being a standout offensive player at every other level. The Flames will give him a shot. Lets see what happens

I have never seen him nor have I heard of him until lasr week. Probably the case for most on here.

Yes. Give him a shot. Nothing wrong with that but this isnt what we have been talking about all day.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Red

Wow.
1. Did not say he is an AHL player.
2. it was said that he was guaranteed a spot on the team. So yes, someone said that he was a sure thing.
3. I have not moved posts. From the begining i said i liked the signing. I just didnt agree with Austins nonsense. Yes. I said nonsense.
4. The comparisons are to illustrate how difficult it is to predict prospects. I do not correlate eye color or height or wharever to project success. Some did here comparing this to how vegas found the dimonds in the rough. Sorry. Does not apply to reality.

Again i ask. Do you believe that he should be guaranteed a top 9 plus PP time? If you dont then you agree with me. Quite the pretzel.
This has beem my beef. Dont agree? Show me where i made conflicting comments.


Make sense now?

Yes, a sure thing in the sense that he will start the season in the NHL. He is not waiver eligible so this is automatic. He is not a sure thing to succeed- nobody is saying that like you seem to think they are.

You have moves posts. You literally wrote "let's see if he makes the team first" and then switched to "top 9 forward with PP time".

Reality? In what reality is a prospect with zero pro experience comparable to an AHL offensive star that has yet to be used in an offensive role in the NHL. Yes, prospects are difficult to predict before they go pro, but there is a much larger sample size here with this guy. Making baseless comparisons doesn't strengthen your argument, it just makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't agree with you- not at all. I firmly believe that during the regular season this year Czarnik will see time on an offensive line and on the powerplay- most likely the second unit. Whether this works or not is up in the air. All I'm saying is that he will get those opportunities. It is is the exact reason why they signed him.

Either way it really seems like none of this is relevant because you've never even watched the player and clearly won't be persuaded in your stance.

Just don't be surprised when Czarnik gets an opportunity. It is literally why they signed him.

[TheAlpineOracle]

There’s nowhere to go but up from last year!

[Red]

Originally Posted by bax

Yes, a sure thing in the sense that he will start the season in the NHL. He is not waiver eligible so this is automatic. He is not a sure thing to succeed- nobody is saying that like you seem to think they are.

You have moves posts. You literally wrote "let's see if he makes the team first" and then switched to "top 9 forward with PP time".

Reality? In what reality is a prospect with zero pro experience comparable to an AHL offensive star that has yet to be used in an offensive role in the NHL. Yes, prospects are difficult to predict before they go pro, but there is a much larger sample size here with this guy. Making baseless comparisons doesn't strengthen your argument, it just makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't agree with you- not at all. I firmly believe that during the regular season this year Czarnik will see time on an offensive line and on the powerplay- most likely the second unit. Whether this works or not is up in the air. All I'm saying is that he will get those opportunities. It is is the exact reason why they signed him.

Either way it really seems like none of this is relevant because you've never even watched the player and clearly won't be persuaded in your stance.

Just don't be surprised when Czarnik gets an opportunity. It is literally why they signed him.

You are confused. Read my posts please.

AustinL_NHL
Crash and Bang Winger

Join Date: Sep 2017
Exp:
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era View Post
I get the whole shiny new toy thing, but can we recognize the players we acquired and what they are? Ryan does not kill penalties. Czarnik is a 13th forward. Neither are going to be special teams mainstays. If they are, Peters is. Or deploying his talent properly, or the Flames are way out of the mix for the post season.
Peters already basically guaranteed that Czarnik will get a ton of PP time, if not be a mainstay. Also, Czarnik is considered by Peters to be an "elite power-play player" and by the way Czarnik talked when being interviewed after signing, it seems Treliving and Peters basically told him he's going to be playing top 9 minutes and at minimum be an every day roster player.

Also guessing they didn't travel all the way down to meet with him in person and sign him to a 2-year/$2.5M contract just for him to be a 13th forward.

So....

[bax]

Originally Posted by Red

You are confused. Read my posts please.

AustinL_NHL
Crash and Bang Winger

Join Date: Sep 2017
Exp:
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era View Post
I get the whole shiny new toy thing, but can we recognize the players we acquired and what they are? Ryan does not kill penalties. Czarnik is a 13th forward. Neither are going to be special teams mainstays. If they are, Peters is. Or deploying his talent properly, or the Flames are way out of the mix for the post season.
Peters already basically guaranteed that Czarnik will get a ton of PP time, if not be a mainstay. Also, Czarnik is considered by Peters to be an "elite power-play player" and by the way Czarnik talked when being interviewed after signing, it seems Treliving and Peters basically told him he's going to be playing top 9 minutes and at minimum be an every day roster player.

Also guessing they didn't travel all the way down to meet with him in person and sign him to a 2-year/$2.5M contract just for him to be a 13th forward.

So....

"Let's wait for him to make the team first"

"I am not talking about waivers. Big spread between that and guaranteed top 9 spot"

"If Tre and Peters didnt say anything, would he be penciled in the lineup? No, he'd be expected to go to the AHL"

It's clear you don't have an understanding of the type of player Czarnik is or for what reason he was signed for.

End of discussion for me. Good day good sir!

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Red

Wow. You yourself made a rediculous claim that he was guaranteed this and that. You disagreed with a person telling you to cool with your expectations.

Read your own post, you pretty much proclaimed him a roster player.

I mean, if you're gonna put words in my mouth and call me ridiculous, at least spell ridiculous correctly.

[Red]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

I mean, if you're gonna put words in my mouth and call me ridiculous, at least spell ridiculous correctly.

I am putting words in your mouth? Your post is right above. WTF?

Let me copy it one more time for you.

Peters already basically guaranteed that Czarnik will get a ton of PP time, if not be a mainstay. Also, Czarnik is considered by Peters to be an "elite power-play player" and by the way Czarnik talked when being interviewed after signing, it seems Treliving and Peters basically told him he's going to be playing top 9 minutes and at minimum be an every day roster player.

[Red]

Originally Posted by bax

"Let's wait for him to make the team first"

"I am not talking about waivers. Big spread between that and guaranteed top 9 spot"

"If Tre and Peters didnt say anything, would he be penciled in the lineup? No, he'd be expected to go to the AHL"

It's clear you don't have an understanding of the type of player Czarnik is or for what reason he was signed for.

End of discussion for me. Good day good sir!

And you do?

Please. I already told you. He is a prospect like many others who will have to fight for ice time. Is that incorrect?

Don't answer. I already said what I wanted. We will see who Czarnik is in 6 months.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Red

I am putting words in your mouth? Your post is right above. WTF?

Let me copy it one more time for you.

Peters already basically guaranteed that Czarnik will get a ton of PP time, if not be a mainstay. Also, Czarnik is considered by Peters to be an "elite power-play player" and by the way Czarnik talked when being interviewed after signing, it seems Treliving and Peters basically told him he's going to be playing top 9 minutes and at minimum be an every day roster player.

Yes, I did say he'd be a everyday top 9 forward with PP time to start the season judging by comments made by Treliving and Peters, which you put absolutely no stock into.

You're taking it one step forward saying I guaranteed he'd also score 20 goals, which I have never once said and also keep failing to acknowledge the fact that I said he could play awful in the NHL and quickly flame out.

But whatever floats your boat, bud.

[Red]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

Yes, I did say he'd be a everyday top 9 forward with PP time to start the season judging by comments made by Treliving and Peters, which you put absolutely no stock into.

You're taking it one step forward saying I guaranteed he'd also score 20 goals, which I have never once said and also keep failing to acknowledge the fact that I said he could play awful in the NHL and quickly flame out.

But whatever floats your boat, bud.

Show me where I said that. Can't? Then stop lying.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

This argument is painful to read, so I skipped almost all of it.

It should be noted that the Bruins had a deep roster, and yet put Czarnik on their powerplay too. Why? It suits his skillset. 5 on 5 he might not be able to put up the offense the way he can on the power play. He has the tools, especially on the halfwall on the left side as a right shot. Case in point:



But it's silly to think he can't play in the NHL right now. The kid has the tools on offense, and I don't know enough about him to say much about his defense, but if you stick him with two defensively responsible players, I'm sure he'll be fine on the wing.

The kid has speed and finish, as you can see in this clip:



But this last clip says it all for me. It begins with a strong forecheck from a small player, but he frees up the puck for his teammates. Then, he watches the play and his instincts and hockey sense tell him to go to the front of the net (unafraid I might add) and his skill allows him to bat the puck out of the air on the rebound for another goal:




Now, of course, with any young or unestablished player, consistency is the key. If he can bring that kind of play most nights, I think it would be hard to keep him out of the lineup.


Also, this is a team that was terrible on the power play last year, so why not try some fresh blood? If Czarnik has value, it's as a Versteeg type of player. An undersized 3rd liner who can add quite a bit to the powerplay. I wouldn't blink at all if he made the team this year, especially with how bad our bottom 6 was last year.


Here's the lineup that I am anticipating to start the season:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Neal
Tkachuk-Backlund-Lindholm
Frolik-Ryan-Czarnik
Bennett-Jankowski-Lazar
Brouwer

PP1
Net-Tkachuk
Halfwall: L-Gaudreau, R-Neal
Slot: Monahan
Point: Any of Brodie/Giordano/Hanifin

PP2
Net-Lindholm
Halfwall: L-Czarnik, R-Backlund/Jankowski
Slot: Ryan
Point: Any of Brodie/Giordano/Hanifin

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

*snip*

This is why I'd like to see Czarnik with Tkachuk and Lindholm for a spell. Two defensively responsible, strong two way players. They are also heavy on the puck and play a possession style. See if Czarnik can find the open ice and use his shot to bury chances.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Red

...I do not correlate eye color or height or wharever to project success. Some did here comparing this to how vegas found the dimonds in the rough. Sorry. Does not apply to reality...

Please explain this further, and elaborate on why this acquisition does not realistically correlate to what happened in VGK this past season?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

This is why I'd like to see Czarnik with Tkachuk and Lindholm for a spell. Two defensively responsible, strong two way players. They are also heavy on the puck and play a possession style. See if Czarnik can find the open ice and use his shot to bury chances.

So this?

Gaudreau-Monahan-Neal
Tkachuk-Lindholm-Czarnik
Bennett-Backlund-Frolik
Jankowski-Ryan-Lazar

I think Ryan's play is going to endear a lot of people to him pretty quickly, so I hesitate to put him on the 4th line. I suppose you could do this:

Frolik-Backlund-Ryan
Bennett-Jankowski-Lazar

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

So this?

Gaudreau-Monahan-Neal
Tkachuk-Lindholm-Czarnik
Bennett-Backlund-Frolik
Jankowski-Ryan-Lazar

I think Ryan's play is going to endear a lot of people to him pretty quickly, so I hesitate to put him on the 4th line. I suppose you could do this:

Frolik-Backlund-Ryan
Bennett-Jankowski-Lazar

I think your last bit works. IMO Jankowski is a centre. His size, skill set and faceoffs say so.

But be ready for complaints from the Give Bennett a Chance crowd. That said, I imagine the ice time would even out dramatically.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Please explain this further, and elaborate on why this acquisition does not realistically correlate to what happened in VGK this past season?

Every player signed/traded for in such circumstances is in hopes of finding that diamond in the rough. I mean most of the book is already out on him, 25 years old with little success. Reality suggests that 99.9% of these will fail to meet the Vegas "luck model".



Vegas got lucky. Just drop it from any team building formula. It changes every year. There really is no magic formula.



For the record, I am not against looking for that diamond in the rough, but at what cost? Stalling our prospects because we keep bringing these guys hoping to win the lottery? No thanks.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

So this?

Gaudreau-Monahan-Neal
Tkachuk-Lindholm-Czarnik
Bennett-Backlund-Frolik
Jankowski-Ryan-Lazar

I think Ryan's play is going to endear a lot of people to him pretty quickly, so I hesitate to put him on the 4th line. I suppose you could do this:

Frolik-Backlund-Ryan
Bennett-Jankowski-Lazar

Bennett - Backlund - Ryan
Frolik - Jankowski - Foo/Lazar/??

Ryan takes draws on his strong side for Backs, our weakest face off guy. Bennett gets to play with two vets. Janko stays at center and gets a solid vet two way winger to play with, the best of the rest round out that "4th" line. If it's Mangiapane or Dube that win the spot, then Frolik can play RW instead of LW.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Red

Every player signed/traded for in such circumstances is in hopes of finding that diamond in the rough. I mean most of the book is already out on him, 25 years old with little success. Reality suggests that 99.9% of these will fail to meet the Vegas "luck model".



Vegas got lucky. Just drop it from any team building formula. It changes every year. There really is no magic formula.



For the record, I am not against looking for that diamond in the rough, but at what cost? Stalling our prospects because we keep bringing these guys hoping to win the lottery? No thanks.

It's not luck. It's scouting. You seem to think this is all luck because you don't know the player. Do you not think the Flames extensively scouted the player and have some sense of why they think he is ready to "pop".

What prospects are being stalled?

And yeah most prospects fail. We all know that. So you can predict that and probably be right.

But there are reasons why MOST of the NHL was interested in this guy. That's not meaningless. There is enough there that people that identify talent for a living think this guy could be something.

I really don't know what this is such a bug up your butt.