[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by devo22

but it's not a loophole. Teams retain a college player's rights for four years before he's a UFA. A CHL kid would also be a UFA after four years (his team obtains his rights for two years, then he'd go back into the draft, his new team would have two years again).

It just astounds me when people refuse to admit there is an imbalance here.

No, it isn't a loophole.

But here's the thing: if you go ahead and get your degree (i.e. spend 4 years in college like mom wants you to), there is ZERO incentive to sign with the team that drafted you. All you have to do is wait until August - missing no hockey - and you're a free agent.

A simple solution is to give teams another year of rights for the player (make it 5 years for ALL players), and the problem would largely disappear.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by edslunch

All this discussion in the Reaves thread about needing a tougher player who can actually play....they had that in Ferland. OK, not as intimidating but very physical. He wasn't consistent but was improving every year and I don't think we saw the best of him yet. Supposedly there were concerns about his next contract but I don't recall any discussion of that on this board before the trade, but suddenly it's a huge issue.... Last time I checked it was a good thing for players to get better and if they deserve to be paid then better you pay your own than pay a premium for someone else's. I'm just having a tough time with that rationale for trading him when he was such a unique and useful piece for the Flames.

I am as big a fan of Ferland as anyone on here, but the simple fact of the matter is that he did little to no policing on Gaudreau's line last year. Here was great offensively, he has a fantastic shot, and he threw the body plenty.

But when teams were taking liberties, there was little to no pushback last year from anyone - including Ferland. And that was the one thing about his game that disappointed me.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

sounds like Fox is simply playing nice with his new team's local media...

Exactly. His first rookie camp with his new team. He's not going to show up and tell them that it's the last time they'll ever see his ass in Carolina.

There's also the possibility that his family advisor was trying to play hardball with the Flames and Treliving called his bluff.

[Dan403]

Can we change the thread title from Adam Fox to Tom Fox?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Aho. And I expect him to.

Aho may be as good a player as Monahan, but Teravainen is no where near the calibre of Gaudreau. If everyone is perfectly healthy next year, I could see Ferland scoring 25-goals if he is a fixture on that line. The thing is, that group is probably good for about 75–80-goals, while I think the addition of Lindholm to Gaudreau and Monahan will almost certainly do better than that.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Huge difference between Erixon leading the Flames on and refusing to sign at the last minute and Fox (maybe) having his family adviser tell them they aren't going to sign 2 years before his rights expire. Let's not take away from how big of a dip#### Tom was.

[Reign of Fire]

[https://twitter.com/NFLRT/status/101...904;6726953]It doesn't really matter what Fox or his agent said. Until he is signed, there is uncertainty and the value is diminished.

it also doesn't matter if Fox eventually does sign with Carolina, because the fact is at the time of the trade, he was NOT signed.

If you want to quantify the asset, you could argue that if Fox was signed, he might be a mid to late 1st rounder.

Unsigned and with uncertainty, maybe he's a 2nd rounder.

So you look at the trade as:

3 years of Hamilton
1 year of Ferland (or, at the trade deadline, a 2nd round pick?)
2nd round pick

for

multi years of Hanifin
multi years of Lindholm

So it's Hamilton and two seconds

for Hanifin and Lindholm.

Value wise, that seems pretty fair to me.[/QUOTE]

So what you are saying is Carolina bought Fox at 10 cents on the dollar, that's how people get ahead in life. If Carolina signs Fox, that makes the trade completely one-sided. Treliving's reasoning for the trade was that Fox won't sign in Carolina. This is why you get them to add conditional pick.

[Mattman]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Waddell 99.9% certain they will sign him. That is quite a prospect he just picked up.

99.9% certain but he only has a 50/50 shot to sign him...

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by devo22

but it's not a loophole. Teams retain a college player's rights for four years before he's a UFA. A CHL kid would also be a UFA after four years (his team obtains his rights for two years, then he'd go back into the draft, his new team would have two years again).

It is a loophole for college kids because it's easy for them to stay with same team and keep playing at a high level all while getting a college degree for 4 years and then pick where they want to go.

A kid in junior can't do that. He's forced out of junior by 20 and then either has to sign with the team that drafted him, go back into the draft and hope he gets picked by a team he wants to sign with this time, or go to Europe for a couple of seasons.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I am as big a fan of Ferland as anyone on here, but the simple fact of the matter is that he did little to no policing on Gaudreau's line last year. Here was great offensively, he has a fantastic shot, and he threw the body plenty.

But when teams were taking liberties, there was little to no pushback last year from anyone - including Ferland. And that was the one thing about his game that disappointed me.

I think he policed last year. I can't think of any moments where Gaudreau was really attacked much. There was a game where Lucic threw him, but that game was getting out of hand already, and I don't think that Ferland was on the ice.


He stuck up for Stajan really well with that cheap blind side from Roussell.


I think often that we don't see Ferland 'policing' because he doesn't usually have to. He will just go and say something between whistles, and that is usually the end of that, especially considering the line match-ups.


Remember during the Anaheim under Gulutzan when Kesler was after Monahan and Gaudreau? Ferland immediately gets between them and tries to get Kesler to drop the mitts, and I think he intimidated Kesler.


I can't think of a moment in a game this past season where I felt that Ferland should have fought someone over what happened with Gaudreau - with the exception of Lucic maybe. That's about it. I argue he didn't have to fight much because of the lines that they matched up against, and how Gaudreau wasn't cheap-shotted much like he was the season before.


Also, remember when Borowiecki drilled Lazar head-first into the boards? Who went after him? It was Ferland.


Ferland *only* fought twice last year, but both times it was in response to a dangerous cheap-shot.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

...So what you are saying is Carolina bought Fox at 10 cents on the dollar, that's how people get ahead in life. If Carolina signs Fox, that makes the trade completely one-sided. Treliving's reasoning for the trade was that Fox won't sign in Carolina. This is why you get them to add conditional pick.

There is still a good deal of uncertainty about Fox's NHL potential. He is possesses excellent offensive instincts, but he is not very big, and his skating is below average. I think at his peak he projects to be a Dennis Wideman type of defenseman, but with the strong emphasis on speed in the game as it is now, I question how effective prime-Dennis Wideman would be.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Aho. And I expect him to.

Hefty expectations. A guy who hasn’t played center with any regularity since he came overseas and hasn’t cracked 48% in the circle at the pro level is their new #1 center?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It is a loophole for college kids because it's easy for them to stay with same team and keep playing at a high level all while getting a college degree for 4 years and then pick where they want to go.

A kid in junior can't do that. He's forced out of junior by 20 and then either has to sign with the team that drafted him, go back into the draft and hope he gets picked by a team he wants to sign with this time, or go to Europe for a couple of seasons.

It's a tradeoff though. The higher end kids would lose multiple years of their pro career if they want to wait all 4 years. They aren't making money going to college.

If anything the Euros going UFA after 4 years is the biggest "loophole". They can play pro hockey the whole time and be making money the whole time.

College players have to start their pro careers later than Euros or CHLers. That is costing them money in exchange for their chance to pick their team.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Hefty expectations. A guy who hasn’t played center with any regularity since he came overseas and hasn’t cracked 48% in the circle at the pro level is their new #1 center?

Yes. Peters is the same guy who played Elias Lindholm and Eric Staal regularily at wing, so I wouldn't read too much into Peters' usage. I doubt the Hurricanes watched Aho center one of the best lines in WJC history, then watched Aho put up great numbers in the NHL, and concluded "hey, we should play this guy at wing because he hasn't cracked 48% on the circle, even though we know faceoffs are a stat with a poor correlation to winning and also unreliably tracked". Recent reports had Aho as being the Canes' only untouchable player - I doubt that would be the case if the intent was to continue to pidgeonhole him on the wing. And they still have Staal to take on tough matchups, so it would be a #1 center in terms of scoring only, just as Monahan allowed Backlund to take tough matchups.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

[https://twitter.com/NFLRT/status/101...904;6726953]It doesn't really matter what Fox or his agent said. Until he is signed, there is uncertainty and the value is diminished.

it also doesn't matter if Fox eventually does sign with Carolina, because the fact is at the time of the trade, he was NOT signed.

If you want to quantify the asset, you could argue that if Fox was signed, he might be a mid to late 1st rounder.

Unsigned and with uncertainty, maybe he's a 2nd rounder.

So you look at the trade as:

3 years of Hamilton
1 year of Ferland (or, at the trade deadline, a 2nd round pick?)
2nd round pick

for

multi years of Hanifin
multi years of Lindholm

So it's Hamilton and two seconds

for Hanifin and Lindholm.

Value wise, that seems pretty fair to me.

So what you are saying is Carolina bought Fox at 10 cents on the dollar, that's how people get ahead in life. If Carolina signs Fox, that makes the trade completely one-sided. Treliving's reasoning for the trade was that Fox won't sign in Carolina. This is why you get them to add conditional pick.[/QUOTE]

How do you get 10 cents on a dollar from mid to late first to a second rounder?

Treliving got value for the Fox asset. The combined value of Ferland and Fox, two discounted assets make up for the certainty of the Lindholm asset.

Again it doesn't matter if Fox signs, Carolina is paying for the uncertainty and risk and they paid for it with a good asset in Lindholm, a longer term controlled asset with upside. Treliving didn't want the risk of Ferland and Fox and cashed out.

Your problem is you think the assets the Flames gave up are worth way more than the assets that Hurricanes gave up which is not the case.

You have hall of fame writers in Duhatschek and Morganti praising Treliving's trade. They also said other GM's were impressed with the trade on Treliving's side. Idiot hockey fans on HF are generally calling it a draw. It's a select few "Flames fans" who continually bash the trade.

You Treliving haters will never see it the way it is because you are blinded by your hate. And before you say i'm a Treliving supporter, know that I'm not a fan of the Peters hiring, and Treliving also traded my favourite player in Ferland in this deal, where is my bias?

[RM14]

There should be an NCAA "Qualifying Offer". If a team does not offer a kid a contract, they simply become a free agent. But if they are offered an entry level contract, that player should not have the option to refuse.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by RM14

There should be an NCAA "Qualifying Offer". If a team does not offer a kid a contract, they simply become a free agent. But if they are offered an entry level contract, that player should not have the option to refuse.

The NCAA doesn't allow student athletes to get paid.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

The NCAA doesn't allow student athletes to get paid.

*After graduation (but before hockey season)

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by RM14

There should be an NCAA "Qualifying Offer". If a team does not offer a kid a contract, they simply become a free agent. But if they are offered an entry level contract, that player should not have the option to refuse.

Or instead of making the deadline to sign a college player in August, make it for December 31st. That way if they don't sign and want to go UFA, they will be ineligible to play in the NHL that season. They would have to play in Europe or the minors until the next season. Might not be a deal breaker for some of them as many would likely start in the minors anyway, but they would also risk lowering their value if they don't perform well.

[Gaudreau is a Ninja]

Just watched both the Lindholm and Hanifin videos again. Man this season can't get started fast enough. Love watching the Doctor in both highlight packages as well. Oh yay and we have Neal now as well Wow!