Fire Brad Treliving

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

A lot of people including myself made fun of Cheveldayoff for his inaction during the first few years in Winnipeg and right now I'm dreaming of that kind of patience.

Big moves every year is certainly entertaining, but I really wish the Flames would show the patience and invest internally (prospect development) that seems to be the best way to obtain long-term success in this league.

The only move that I feel was too much was the Hamonic trade. The Hamilton move was made with known picks (we also had a surplus) and was done as the player was turning 22. Hamonic was future unprotected capital where we did not have a surplus and he was 27.

We knew a deal was coming this summer as Treliving made the coaching change and stated this was more than a coaching issue. With Hamilton being 3 years away from commanding a $10M cap hit I am glad the Flames made the move they did.

I couldn’t handle being a fan of the Jets for the past 7 years. Sure they look amazing now but so much blah in between. Good for them for having that patience but I couldn’t stand having a GM that does as little as Chevy

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The only move that I feel was too much was the Hamonic trade. The Hamilton move was made with known picks (we also had a surplus) and was done as the player was turning 22. Hamonic was future unprotected capital where we did not have a surplus and he was 27.

We knew a deal was coming this summer as Treliving made the coaching change and stated this was more than a coaching issue. With Hamilton being 3 years away from commanding a $10M cap hit I am glad the Flames made the move they did.

I couldn’t handle being a fan of the Jets for the past 7 years. Sure they look amazing now but so much blah in between. Good for them for having that patience but I couldn’t stand having a GM that does as little as Chevy

The Flames also seem intent on picking up bottom 6 guys instead of giving internal pieces larger opportunities. Brouwer, Stewart, Grossmann, Glass... the list goes on. I can't recall the last time this wasteful spending worked well for the Flames.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The Flames also seem intent on picking up bottom 6 guys instead of giving internal pieces larger opportunities. Brouwer, Stewart, Grossmann, Glass... the list goes on. I can't recall the last time this wasteful spending worked well for the Flames.

3 of the guys you listed costed nothing. Stewart was a waiver pickup, Glass and Grossman were signed for peanuts and all 3 barely played for the Flames.

Brouwer was a bad move easily one of if not the worst move Treliving has made butnhe was brought in to be the 20-25 goal 45pt forward he has been throughout his career.

Versteeg would qualify in the wasted spending you are referring to and he worked out. Jagr did not but was worth the risk.

I believe last year Glass and Jagr were both added late as the Flames did plan to give internal options a try but no one had a good camp which is why the vets were signed.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

A lot of people including myself made fun of Cheveldayoff for his inaction during the first few years in Winnipeg and right now I'm dreaming of that kind of patience.

Big moves every year is certainly entertaining, but I really wish the Flames would show the patience and invest internally (prospect development) that seems to be the best way to obtain long-term success in this league.

Maybe, that patience got him through two rounds which was great, then they got their skulls caved in during the third round.


I also believe that Winnipeg's competitive window is going to be shorter due to his "patience".

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Maybe, that patience got him through two rounds which was great, then they got their skulls caved in during the third round.


I also believe that Winnipeg's competitive window is going to be shorter due to his "patience".

How is it going to be shorter? It already looked like it should be a significant window and some of their young players are still getting better.

We should be so lucky to get our skulls caved in in the 3rd round.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The only move that I feel was too much was the Hamonic trade. The Hamilton move was made with known picks (we also had a surplus) and was done as the player was turning 22. Hamonic was future unprotected capital where we did not have a surplus and he was 27.

The problem with the Hamonic deal for me isn't the cost. In isolation, it's alright. The problem is that Treliving took a major asset in that first rounder, and spent it on a position that was already a relative strength: Defence. And he did this, despite knowing that he had a major hole on right wing. A major hole that we still have today.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The problem with the Hamonic deal for me isn't the cost. In isolation, it's alright. The problem is that Treliving took a major asset in that first rounder, and spent it on a position that was already a relative strength: Defence. And he did this, despite knowing that he had a major hole on right wing. A major hole that we still have today.

Present day defence wasn't a strength. The Flames had Stone/Brodie as a second pairing, were losing Engelland, and Kulak was not a regular. None of the kids were ready to step up yet, including Andersson and they are probably all a couple years away from being any kind of impact players.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

How is it going to be shorter? It already looked like it should be a significant window and some of their young players are still getting better.

We should be so lucky to get our skulls caved in in the 3rd round.

Because salary cap.

Wheeler (who already makes $5.6 mil), Connor and Laine are going to get massive raises after this season.

Trouba and Morrissey are going to cost them more now. As is Hellybuck.

Luckily for the Jets, they have $24 million in cap space to play with right now, so they've got room and time. But the Jets are also a team that you always wonder about having in internal cap.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Present day defence wasn't a strength. The Flames had Stone/Brodie as a second pairing, were losing Engelland, and Kulak was not a regular. None of the kids were ready to step up yet, including Andersson and they are probably all a couple years away from being any kind of impact players.

Has anyone thought that maybe he had a deal in place for Hamilton last off-season that fell apart after he got Hamonic? Maybe Hamonic was supposed to replace the loss of Hamilton...

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Has anyone thought that maybe he had a deal in place for Hamilton last off-season that fell apart after he got Hamonic? Maybe Hamonic was supposed to replace the loss of Hamilton...

I can't imagine that was the case. I think they wanted a player to complement Brodie and, on paper, a stay at home guy who can transition pretty well is a good match for a skating defenceman who is a tad weak in his won zone. I think he was seen as being able to push Stone down the lineup.

[DiracSpike]

I was excited about Adam Fox too but it's clear that he wasn't going to sign here. Keeping him would be the equivalent of holding a plummeting stock when you know it's going to hit zero, it makes no sense. Other teams in the league know this as well as there have been multiple high-profile players burning the teams that drafted or traded for their rights. He feels like a throw-in because he basically is.

Same logic with Ferland, we'd have one more year with him before he leaves for nothing as a UFA. I'd put good odds on both Ferland and Fox never playing a game for the Hurricanes after next season. Contrast that with Lindholm and Hanifan who will both be signed to multi-year deals.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I still believe that Treliving has done more good than harm.



His two worst moves were the hiring of Gulutzan, and the signing of Brouwer.


I felt that every off-season, the Flames improved while Treliving was here. Doesn't always work out that way, and thus why you have to play the games. However, I always thought that the Flames were a better club every off-season.


Some of his other notable misses was losing Byron, signing Raymond, trading for Bollig... held onto Ortio, Ramo and Hiller too long that season, and didn't manage to find an upgrade in net, especially after Ramo went down after his resurgence (and the team's resurgence). It felt like he hung that team out to dry in my opinion, but it isn't very easy to make an in-season trade, especially when it is for a goalie.


I don't think Hamonic was a miss. I think Hamonic is an important piece for the Flames, and they do not have a defencemen like him in their org. I think a piece like him becomes even more valuable come the playoffs.



I would have liked a bit more value in the recent trade personally, but by no means was it a poor trade. Flames received 2 very promising players who are already established. Either team can come out as winners - I don't think you have to 'win' every trade - sometimes it is about just improving your team, and this season will show whether he has done so or not.


He is not infallible by any means, but one question has to be asked:


Are the Flames worse now since Treliving took over, or are they better? I think they are better. When they become worse - especially from an asset standpoint - then I will join the 'Fire Treliving' chants. I just don't see a reason to start them as of now. I see a lot more good than bad.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

A lot of people including myself made fun of Cheveldayoff for his inaction during the first few years in Winnipeg and right now I'm dreaming of that kind of patience.

Big moves every year is certainly entertaining, but I really wish the Flames would show the patience and invest internally (prospect development) that seems to be the best way to obtain long-term success in this league.

I agree that a patient drafting and development strategy (assuming you can cultivate an organizational strength in drafting and development) is the best way to achieve long-term success in today's NHL. But I think the impatience that afflicts this franchise comes from the very top, from Flames ownership. Cheveldayoff has been very fortunate to have an ownership that support his patient approach.

And Treliving's most recent deal is very forward-thinking. Not many trades bring back 21 and 23 year olds of the pedigree of Hanifin and Lindholm.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Are the Flames worse now since Treliving took over, or are they better? I think they are better.

Obviously they are better because when Treliving took over, Gaudreau had one game played in the NHL, Monahan had one season as a 19 year old, Backlund was just emerging, we didn't yet use the 6th and 4th overall picks to draft Tkachuk and Bennett, Jankowski was still developing in college, Ferland was developing in major junior and not nearly the trade piece he was this offseason.

The vast majority of Treliving's moves, whether Hamilton, Hamonic, Byron, Brouwer, Smith, Raymond, Lindholm/Hanifin have not been clear improvements to the team's long term outlook. They've been "safe plays" for "proven" performance at the expense of serious potential. It was "safe" to trade for Hamilton because he was "proven", but there was serious talent on the table that our scouting staff had clearly identified based on reports (Connor, Boeser, probably Barzal too). It was "safe" to trade for Hamonic because he's a veteran defenseman, but his ceiling and future trade value will only decline. It was "safe" to acquire Mike Smith rather than try out Anti Raanta or someone else just coming into their prime. It was "safe" to sign Troy Brouwer than take a pricier swing on an actual top six forward like Backes or Okposo. It was "safe" to risk losing Byron because he was "unproven", even though he clearly had more to give offensively based on his terrible luck the prior year on breakaways.

That extends to his contracts too. He could have signed Gaudreau to a 7.5-ish x 8 on the spot, but trying to save a few hundred thousand dollars that he would go and spend on the Tanner Glasses of the world anyways shrunk the size of his contention window by a full two years.

That's really the theme with Treliving. Seemingly lateral moves with emphasis on trading high potential for present mediocrity.

I give him credit for not giving up on guys like Brodie, Jankowski, and Bennett when it would have been easy to - but he also set Brodie up to fail the last two seasons by forcing him on the left (people talk about GG's LR fetish but it's really Tre acquiring all these right D up until now, finally). He's the one who actually thought Troy Brouwer was what Bennett needed to become a good center, not GG. He exposed Jankowski to potential UFA by electing to send him back for his fourth year when Janko wanted to turn pro.

The best thing Treliving has done is draft well - and we don't know how much input he even has into drafting other than his move up for Kylington a few years ago (which was great). How much of that credit goes to Feaster and even Sutter for shoring up our amateur scouting is un-knowable.

Overall, saying we're a better team now than we were when Tre took over is disingenous. Of course we are - that was the beginning of year two of a rebuild. But the rebuild itself was cut short by some real impatient moves and our overall organizational depth and value isn't as high as it should be. The only trade assets we seem to have are the ones Tre inherited from the previous regime, plus Tkachuk who fell to us. No one is looking to swing a trade for Frolik, Hamonic, Brouwer, Lazar, Stone. IMO we didn't gain value in this year's big trade, and while people are convinced Lindholm will blow up into a 55+ pt forward it's just as possible he plateaus as a .5 ppg guy like Frolik at which point I think Ferland would have been a more rare and valuable piece.

I also suspect the decision of Fox to not sign had a lot to do with the Stone signing and Hamonic trade. You gotta make room for a guy like Fox, not tell them they'll play in the AHL until they force an open spot. I doubt Gaudreau would have originally signed if we saturated our LW position right before he arrived. Instead Hartley directly told him there was a roster spot available for him on Day One and it was his to lose. But Tre, as well as a lot of our fanbase, seem to have illusions that earning roster spots is a successful path, when time and time again talented players would rather have opportunity rather than the opportunity for opportunity.

Frankly I think Brad Treliving is an unambitious GM and I don't see him ever making us into a true cup contender. Contrast him with Kevin Cheveldayoff who spent years amassing assets with a long term vision in mind (forget Laine - that was a lotto win, but Hellebuyck, Ehlers, Connor, Morrissey, Scheifele, Trouba, etc were all the product of a team being truly patient when I'm sure "Hamonic" type trades were in their wheelhouse too.). Tre as far as I can see bleeds draft picks and he constantly signs mediocre players to bloated contracts in UFA. His over-activity is not always a positive in my eyes.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I agree that a patient drafting and development strategy (assuming you can cultivate an organizational strength in drafting and development) is the best way to achieve long-term success in today's NHL. But I think the impatience that afflicts this franchise comes from the very top, from Flames ownership. Cheveldayoff has been very fortunate to have an ownership that support his patient approach.

And Treliving's most recent deal is very forward-thinking. Not many trades bring back 21 and 23 year olds of the pedigree of Hanifin and Lindholm.

It can't be argued that the Flames were ahead of the Leafs in their rebuild when Treliving took over and are now behind the Leafs. Sure the Leafs tanked and got Matthews but I feel they would have been pretty good even without him as the Marner and Nylander picks were good picks themselves and most of the players on their roster have been from Burke drafts/trades (Kadri, Reilly, Gardiner, JVR, etc) and the current regime. The Leafs have kind of leaned on their drafted guys while Treliving keeps making trades and shuffling his roster and unlike Treliving they made a big move for a young goaltender to shore up the future rather than go through the recycle bin of veteran goaltenders. I kind of hope that he sticks with this group to see it through as I'm not sure the constant changing of the roster is a positive thing. He's also going to have to sort out the goaltender position as it's still year to year which isn't good enough.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Sure the Leafs tanked and got Matthews

Which they shouldn't be ashamed of. If the best way to get off the treadmill is to get off the treadmill, you do it.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Which they shouldn't be ashamed of. If the best way to get off the treadmill is to get off the treadmill, you do it.

It is far easier said than done.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Which they shouldn't be ashamed of. If the best way to get off the treadmill is to get off the treadmill, you do it.

Look North.

[Fan in Exile]

Treliving is good at treading water. His moves aren't disastrous but he's no magician and I don't think he has a strong long-term vision.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Treliving is good at treading water. His moves aren't disastrous but he's no magician and I don't think he has a strong long-term vision.

I disagree. How many of the core are under 25 and signed or will be signed for multiple years. He has a very good foundation. If one of the goalies takes that next step he will have key pieces at every position.