Today in History

[SpitFire40]

I've been to the National Military Memorial of the Pacific on Oahu this past summer. The ammount of names on the paques/walls was overwhelming.

Very amazing place to be, inside of a crater.

Here's a couple pics I took.

Gravestones, many that were killed December 7th 1941



Flag at Half Mast, as you can see in the background... still an active military cemetary. Nobody was there to see whoever this person was to be buried so my Father and I went to honor the person as he was buried.



I can't think of a more beautiful place to be buried



Just a great photo here. Soldier killed in WWII

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Fireball

And the reason they don't often refer to the war as being from 1939-1945, is because it wasn't technically a World War until American and Japan got involved. Prior to that, it was just a conflict in Eastern Europe.

Why is it not technically a world war untill then???
There was fighting in Europe and Africa, and troops were comming form North America, Australia, and by the time the US got involved, Russia and the Germans were going at it.
Seems to me you've got 5 continents involved. Seems like a world war to me.

That is part of what can come off as arrogance. Saying things like "well it really wasn't a world war untill the US got involved" is absolutely rediculous and very arrogant. Prior to the US involvment a very large portion of the world, granted it was mainly through British Imperialism, was already involved and being impacted by the war. To say that it was only a Conflict in Eastern Europe (which is really stupid seeing as how a MAJOR WESTERN Eurpoean power had already been conquored by another MAJOR WESTERN EUROPEAN power), is demeaning to those who answered the call to hault German agression prior to 1941.

I should note that I in no way am downplaying the Amreican role in bringing an end to WWII, but statements like "We bailed you out" do nothing but bring tension to a difficult subject.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

My gut feeling was that the mistake that the German's made in changing thier bombing tactics over England to Civilian terror bombing campaigns....

It wasn't a mistake so much as an accident. Two germans were flying over Britain at night and got lost. Running low on fuel they dropped their bombs (to lighten their load) over london thinking it was an empty field. London would turn off it lights at night so the germans wouldn't find their base I presume. Britain then did the same thing back and thus began the terror bombings.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Burninator

It wasn't a mistake so much as an accident. Two germans were flying over Britain at night and got lost. Running low on fuel they dropped their bombs (to lighten their load) over london thinking it was an empty field. London would turn off it lights at night so the germans wouldn't find their base I presume. Britain then did the same thing back and thus began the terror bombings.

Uhhh... That is what happened when they bobmed the West side of London and in Buckinham Palace I believe, but it had always been the German's intentions on bombing the English cities into submission and breaking their will that way. It wasn't just London but every port city in England got the brunt of the attacks.

[Calgaryborn]

I don't think we won by so much that we would have had the same result if any of our players didn't show up. Without Canada England wouldn't have survived until the Americans got involved. We kept the supplies rolling into England and provided a lot of the fly boys that kept the Germans at bay. Long before America was pulled into the war they were helping supply England through Canadian shipping.

[Fireball]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I find this analysis to be very interesting and would love to go through it with your opinion

Sure!

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think the Allies would have eventually established at least a couple of beach heads in Normandy and France. Now we know that as successful as the D-Day invasion is considered, there were some struggles and a lot of the Allies fell behind the inital and probably over-optimistic time tables. Now by this time German Air Power had been sevely crippled, so the Allies could have used thier now superior airpower to continue to cripple the German arms industry. The German long range artillary would have been based around thier V1, V2 and long range train based long guns, but its likely that the RAF would have crippled thier ability to both manufacture these weapons and deploy them. It would have also been difficult for the German's to continue thier atomic arms experiments with the pressure that was being put on the German's on both fronts. Its also a given that even though the American Airforce including the bomber groups would have made its way into the war, but the American's would have continued thier advanced weapons development and superior aircraft like the B-24 would have made thier way into the British inventory.

Quite so! But Germany had already successfully air raided England from September of 1940 through to May 1941, which is why they had suffered so many loses in the first place. England was suffering massive loses to their aircraft production then, as Hitler had basically been able to shut down most of the airfields and training centers that trained and housed new pilots for the Allies.

They (the Nazis) suffered just as many loses when Brittain returned the favour, mind you... but I really doubt that slowed them down. Had the US not intervened with some reinforcement over London and in the English channel, it likely would have been a statemate, as Hitler could have rebuilt some of his aircraft in a matter of months. Had Hitler not retracted most of his Luftwaffe to the Russian line, either, it may have likely been an entirely different outcome, including the loses suffered by American pilots.

Win or lose, I think we could both agree that D-Day would have been a helluva lot more ugly without the American pressence. France would have likely been a much bloodier, much longer country to try and retake. Loses would have been staggeringly high for both sides.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There's a funny story about German troops passing Russian trains heading to Germany loaded with grain and oil, this was how surprised Stalin was over the speed of Hitler's betrayal. The Russian's had already gained a lot of Armament's from the American's by 1941 including the chasis for the greatest tank ever made in the T-34, combine that with the fact that Marshall's Zhukov and Bukarin (I think) had taken the German Strategy of Blitzkrieg and perfected it into the combined arms art that the Russian's continued to perfect until the late 80's. At the time of the turnaround at Stalingrad, the Russians had a massive advantage in men, tanks, tubed artillary and aircraft. Its likely that the German's might have made the smart move and withdrawn thier troops from Russian soil and dig in on the German borders and made any invasion even more bloody. Hitler's pride and lack of Military intelligence (both personally and institutionally) doomed the German offensive from day one of the invasion.

You said it yourself, the American's sent the T-34 chasis to Russia, it could have been an entirely different story. But Hitler was slowly gaining ground in the USSR. What he lacked in MI, his Generals had in being able to pick and chose where to fight. The whole Blitzkreig philosophy was to strike where to least expected, and grab as much land was possible.

I don't dispute that he would have taken Moscow, nor Stalingrad for that matter... but without, at least, some kind of advantage on the field provided by the US, it would have gotten ugly, as Hitler felt obviously felt threatened by the US entering the war. He wanted to end the fighting in Eastern Europe, or at least minimize it before the US had a chance to get involved even more than they were in Europe, (which is why he contracted Japan to attack them in the first place.)

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

German U-boat losses even before the American involvement in the war were murderous, and the interception of the Enigma code by the remnants of Polish intelligence really screwed over the German's hopes of strangling the British off. The german blockade was only suppossed to last for so long while it waited for the British surrender, but the British resolution and thier ability to forestall Hitler's land invasion of Britain effectively ended the Submarine threat in the Atlantic.

The validity of the Polish being the first to crack the Enigma code is still up for debate. However, the Americans did help to advance the English technology that was developed some time after the Polish laid claim to it. The American technology not only sped up and aided the Brit's counterpart, but made the decipherings more accurate, as well.

As far as the U-Boats were concerned, yes, they were getting sunk and hit with utmost accuracy... but that didn't stop them from prowling the Atlantic and crippling the trade lines like they did, either.

I think only speculation could have determined that outcome had the US not had some kind of Naval pressence off of North America's Eastern shore.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Without American assistance, the German's would have still lost, the correllation of German Forces to Ally forces would have still ensured that. However I still think the war would have become even more of a war of attrition where Allied forces were forced to throw themselves against a well prepared German trench network. I figured the War would have taken 5 years longer, the Japanese would not have had a counter in the East and would have probably seen the success of thier Co-prosperity sphere. The American's would have probably emerged as an even stronger economic force, and the Soviets would have been unoppossed in Europe since nobody would have wanted to continue the war against a strong Soviet Army.

One of the things that causes the Canadian's to be somewhat ignored was that we were part of the Commonwealth command structure so for all intensive purposes especially to the American's we get labeled as British Forces.

Depends on how you want to look at it. The US was supplying the Allies with parts, ammunitions, technology, and supplies since the war started, while turning killer profit off of the oil that Hitler's forces demanded in order to got as far as he did.

Had the US not been there at all to strengthen, reinforce and refresh our own forces, while being able to intimidate, rush and force Hitler into taking action and moving his forces to areas of Europe he may not have done without the US being involved, it could have resulted in a completely different scenerio.

All we have to base it on is speculation and educated guesses from the events that actually unfolded during WWII. As you said, it's tough to predict.

One things for sure, though, the US was and still is the leading military powerhouse on the globe. I, for one, am thankful they chose our side.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Hey I'm completely thankful for American involvement especially since there wasn't alot of depth of Defense on our West Coast, and the Japanese were a carrier force so they could have projected power into our backyard. Its likely that we would have seen a much larger Soviet Empire unless the Japanese decided to attack through thier chinese holdings in an effort to seize the Eastern Soviet Union. But the Soviet Navy was in its infancy at that point and couldn't have countered a strong Japanese threat. Combine that with the fact that the Soviet far east command had been drained to the Western front, and we might be seeing three strong empires at the end of the Second World War.

An American Empire with its younger generation largely unharmed, but with an awesome production facitlity.

A resurgant Japanese Empire that controlled the majority of the Pacific Ocean, the Eastern half of China, and as far north as Siberia.

A Russian Empire that rolled through all of Europe and had set up an Iron Curtain through the French Coastlines. That had gained nuclear weapons before the Yanks, and the rocket technology to deploy them. And under Stalin.



Tough to Predict.

Good point... but I'm still a firm believer that the US bailed us out. They did a lot more for the Allies, and for Russia than simply dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Without their intel., their reinforcement, and their next-to-impenetrable Navy at the time, we would have suffered, and that's a fact.

We did our part, and they did theres. Yes, it was a joint effort, and sure, they like to relish in their own victory... but we're not less guilty of doing that, either.

[Fireball]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Why is it not technically a world war untill then???
There was fighting in Europe and Africa, and troops were comming form North America, Australia, and by the time the US got involved, Russia and the Germans were going at it.
Seems to me you've got 5 continents involved. Seems like a world war to me.

That is part of what can come off as arrogance. Saying things like "well it really wasn't a world war untill the US got involved" is absolutely rediculous and very arrogant. Prior to the US involvment a very large portion of the world, granted it was mainly through British Imperialism, was already involved and being impacted by the war. To say that it was only a Conflict in Eastern Europe (which is really stupid seeing as how a MAJOR WESTERN Eurpoean power had already been conquored by another MAJOR WESTERN EUROPEAN power), is demeaning to those who answered the call to hault German agression prior to 1941.

I should note that I in no way am downplaying the Amreican role in bringing an end to WWII, but statements like "We bailed you out" do nothing but bring tension to a difficult subject.

I'm speaking soley on the American ideology at the time. Since the fighting wasn't done on any other soil but Europe's, it wasn't a 'World War' - just as Iraq and Afghanistan aren't 'World Wars,' even though the US, Australia, England, Germany, Canada, any many many other Allied countries are actively getting themselves shot over there. It wasn't until Japan brought the fight to the home front, that reality sunk in. Yet, you talk to any American, outside of what you see on CNN or Fox news, and they feel completely different. They actually symphathize with what we did prior to them joining the war. The tour guide said, herself, it was a bad idea not to get involved in the war before they did.

Don't let everything the American media tells you, fool you, either. You're just as guilty of buying into American propoganda as I apparently am. You want an honest opinion? Talk to your average American citizen. They're just as reasonable as we are, you know. Despite what we've come to believe up here, as well, they don't hate us, either.

And, I still am a firm believer that they bailed us out. Sue me. I never once downplayed anything the Allies did before the US got involved, did I? Infact, my great Grandfather served in both World Wars, himself, as a Medic on the beaches, and in the Armored Corp. My other grandfather was chased out of Croatia by the Nazis in 1938 and fled to Canada. I'm strongly believe in the action the Allies took in stopping the War in the first place, but saying they could have done it without the US, that the US didn't care, or that the Allies didn't depend, if not exclusively in some instances on the US is equally as arrogant and offensive.

Anyway, this thread has turned ugly in a hurry... I'm done debating this. You all have your own opinion, and I have mine. Let's leave it at that.

[Looger]

the question of the night bombing in london is an interesting one, especially considering that the british revenge raid the next night led to the tactics change by goering who by all accounts had no idea how close he was to defeating the RAF.

there's no doubt that the luftwaffe had previous to the battle of britain used terror against the citizenry to defeat nations, so the point of whether the first civvy bombing was by mistake or not really becomes a moot point because after the berlin revenge raid it became main tactic #1 which was a serious blunder.

i suppose and night bombing campaign is inevitably going to strike the wrong target, considering how inaccurate even daytime bombing was at the time, and how close some of the radar arrays and airfields were to some towns - though most were in the country.

the whole episode stands out to me as more evidence of the sheer idiocy of goering, and the absurdity of the whole criminal nazi government and the cronyism therein. goering was untouchable as he'd been hitler's main bud during the rise of nazism, part of the inner circle.

speaking of the nazi inner circle, in the atlantic battle i really believe that the numbers don't bear out the enigma effect, i think that the economic resources directed towards the kriegsmarine is a more direct cause-and-effect when looking at the timeline of when the allies' convoy defense started to work. doenitz wasn't part of the criminal elite and he didn't curry favour or participate in seances and occult readings and he didn't have some BS pet project in the social ministries. when his funds were cut off in 1943 the allies won the atlantic, period. yes, the codes were broken - but many entire wolf packs operated independently and assumed that their cover was blown. yes, convoy defense worked - but became far more effective when the number of u-boats they were facing went down.

as for pearl harbour, it's interesting that there was a submarine attack poorly coordinated by the japanese by little pup subs an hour before the famous assault, during which 3 subs were sunk by US destroyers and a 4th crashed aground. an actual standown order was issued after this incident, when there should have been an alert issued. make of that what you will, it seems pretty suspicious to me... especially when combined with the open provocations with japan, like the oil embargo and america's covert war against the empire in china.

[Looger]

for anyone convinced that america was indispensible to the war effort, i submit one very simple fact.

peral harbour was literally the week that germany's empire got to its biggest point - when its forward recon units reached the outskirts of moscow's suburbs.

and before pearl harbour, america was actually trading commerce with germany.

very bizarre.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Looger

for anyone convinced that america was indispensible to the war effort, i submit one very simple fact.

peral harbour was literally the week that germany's empire got to its biggest point - when its forward recon units reached the outskirts of moscow's suburbs.

and before pearl harbour, america was actually trading commerce with germany.

very bizarre.

If you read my link in one of my previous posts in his thread you'll see that the Ford and GM German subsidiaries were doing great supplying Hitler.

As for Fireball there is no sense arguing with him as he doesn't read or comprehend what anyone says other then if it fits his agenda.

[FlamesAddiction]

The U.S. almost single handedly defeated Japan to end the war, but the European theatre was a collective effort that several countries deserve credit for. The U.S. was important for sure, as was Russia (at least as important as the U.S.), Britain, Canada, the French Resistance, and the resistance all over Europe.

[Fireball]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

If you read my link in one of my previous posts in his thread you'll see that the Ford and GM German subsidiaries were doing great supplying Hitler.

As for Fireball there is no sense arguing with him as he doesn't read or comprehend what anyone says other then if it fits his agenda.

The irony of that statement is wasted on me. Grow up, and try to avoid personal attacks to get your point across in the future.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Fireball

The irony of that statement is wasted on me. Grow up, and try to avoid personal attacks to get your point across in the future.

You never faced any of my points, what else can I say.

[Fireball]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

You never faced any of my points, what else can I say.

How about nothing? As I said, I'm not longer interested in debating this. I've said my piece. You've said yours. None of our opinions have changed. It's done.

Good day.

[STeeLy]

Man... I shoulda came on here and asked for help for my High School History paper a year ago.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The U.S. almost single handedly defeated Japan to end the war, but the European theatre was a collective effort that several countries deserve credit for. The U.S. was important for sure, as was Russia (at least as important as the U.S.), Britain, Canada, the French Resistance, and the resistance all over Europe.

i really think that germany was defeated before we started bombing / invading from the west.

not that it wasn't a contribution but december 1941 was as far as germany got, it was all backwards from there despite the many chances they had to turn it around again.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Looger

i really think that germany was defeated before we started bombing / invading from the west.

not that it wasn't a contribution but december 1941 was as far as germany got, it was all backwards from there despite the many chances they had to turn it around again.

Yeah, Germany was already falling back when the U.S. joined in. They hastened the German defeat though. The Nazis could have held on longer if not for the U.S. They don't deserve all the credit that certain Americans heap on themselves, but their contribution was substantial.

Honestly though, I think the U.S. was mainly just trying to take Germany before the Russians because of all the technology they could snag.

[TimSJ]

Dec 8 1854
Pius IX promulgates the doctrine of Immaculate Conception, that the Virgin Mary is free from original sin. Later, she achieves permanent fame when despite of her marriage, she gets knocked up by God.

Dec 8 1941
The day after Pearl Harbor, the 4th Interceptor Command reports two formations of enemy planes approaching Los Angeles, spotted in the San Francisco area. Fortunately, the seagulls do not bomb the city.

Dec 8 1963
Frank Sinatra Jr. was kidnapped in Lake Tahoe, Nevada. He was set free four days later. It was discovered that Sinatra, Jr. cooperated with his abductors in their plot. Dad was not proud, nor pleased. Frank Jr. went on to conduct the big band for Frank Sr. and all was well.

Dec 8 1980
Beatle John Lennon shot by a lunatic, Mark David Chapman, outside Lennon's apartment in New York City mere hours after receiving the Beatle's autograph. The National Enquirer is roundly criticized for publishing a fuzzy photograph of Lennon in his coffin, much as they did for Elvis Presley.

Dec 8 1982
Norman D. Mayer barricades himself inside the Washington Monument with hostages and declares that he will blow it up unless all nuclear weapons are dismantled. He is shot by police after 10 hours.

Dec 8 1983
The top elected official in Maricopa County, AZ, declines to resign after a remark that "homosexuals ought to be used instead of animals" for medical experimentation.

Dec 8 1987
Intifada begins in Palestine.

Dec 8 1988
The cities of Leninakan and Spitak are totally destroyed in a massive Armenian earthquake that kills over 50,000.

Dec 8 1997
Actor Robert Downey Jr. sentenced to six months in prison for probation violations related to drug charges

[pope04]

Originally Posted by TimSJ

Dec 8 1980
Beatle John Lennon shot by a lunatic, Mark David Chapman, outside Lennon's apartment in New York City mere hours after receiving the Beatle's autograph. The National Enquirer is roundly criticized for publishing a fuzzy photograph of Lennon in his coffin, much as they did for Elvis Presley.

I recall doing homework, listening to a Flames' game on the radio this night. Between periods, a terse "John Lennon is dead!" was the initial abrupt segue into this huge story. It gave me the chills.

Thanks for this, Tim! Keep 'em coming!

[Looger]

Originally Posted by TimSJ

Dec 8 1988
The cities of Leninakan and Spitak are totally destroyed in a massive Armenian earthquake that kills over 50,000.

Dec 8 1997
Actor Robert Downey Jr. sentenced to six months in prison for probation violations related to drug charges

wow, here's a clear cut example of how ridiculous news reporting can be, what's important and what's highlited!