[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

After having slept on it I still don’t like this trade.

We gave up the only trade chip we had that could have landed us a #1 RW, and Lindholm is not that player. A year from now we may be in a position of having no #1 RW, no starting goalie, and no #1D if Gio takes a step back.

That’s a lot of holes to fill.

I don’t see how trading Hamilton for a #1 RW over trading him for Lindholm and Hanifin positively impacts our starting goalie and #1 D scenario, what does it have to do with it?

In the situation you presented, here’s what could happen:
Keep Hamilton - no #1 RW, no starting goalie
Trade Hamilton for #1 RW - no starting goalie, no #1 D
Trade Hamilton for Lindholm and Hanifin - no starting goalie, ??? #1 RW, ??? #1 D

Lindholm and Hanifin may not be a lock to fill those holes, but they have a good shot at it.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Nonsense comparison. There is a difference between top 5 picks that have established themselves as contributing NHLers and top 5 picks who haven't.

In other words, being a top five pick is meaningless. How you play in the NHL is not.

[oldschoolcalgary]

i loved Ferly... but the thing that was missing was consistency... great shot, under rated passer and a guy i think the team loved... he's going to be a loss for sure.

but Lindholm, can contribute to the game even when he's not scoring... and i'm not sure that's not something i can say about Ferly...there were games where you didn't notice him at all... i think Lindholm, from the accounts people suggest, is very responsible defensively and can be a guy that contributes in all facets of the game...

i am curious as to how it will all turn out

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

i loved Ferly... but the thing that was missing was consistency... great shot, under rated passer and a guy i think the team loved... he's going to be a loss for sure.

but Lindholm, can contribute to the game even when he's not scoring... and i'm not sure that's not something i can say about Ferly...there were games where you didn't notice him at all... i think Lindholm, from the accounts people suggest, is very responsible defensively and can be a guy that contributes in all facets of the game...

i am curious as to how it will all turn out

One thing’s for sure, if he plays with Johnny and Mony, he’s going to like his point totals.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

By this logic, let's get Yakupov

Why not?

I mean I have read on here, endlessly, that Sam Bennett is a guy they simply can't trade because...stuff.

Yet in their first 3 full seasons,

Bennett had 88 pts in 240 games.
Yakupov had 88 pts in 192 games.

Logical fallacy everywhere!!!

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Disagree. They needed a RH shot that's proven he can play in the top 6, and they also needed a guy who can play C or W as an insurance policy in case of injuries and/or one of our young C's not stepping up again as a strong 3rd C option.

It's also a bonus that's he strong at face offs, which is something we are severely lacking and is also something that is very important to the new coach.

In my view Lindholm is barely a top 6 guy and hasn't put up great numbers while playing with the top guys in Carolina. With Aho and Staal he scored 5 goals. With Aho and Teravainen he scored 3. With Skinner and Di Guiseppe (who??) he scored 9. I think the Flames top line needs a guy much better than Lindholm. In this discussion I'm seeing a lot of focus on potential and upside which is great but if Lindholm is still a development exercise it is going to hurt Johnny and Sean. They need a more experienced linemate that is capable of 50 or 60 points right from game 1.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don’t see how trading Hamilton for a #1 RW over trading him for Lindholm and Hanifin positively impacts our starting goalie and #1 D scenario, what does it have to do with it?



In the situation you presented, here’s what could happen:

Keep Hamilton - no #1 RW, no starting goalie

Trade Hamilton for #1 RW - no starting goalie, no #1 D

Trade Hamilton for Lindholm and Hanifin - no starting goalie, ??? #1 RW, ??? #1 D



Lindholm and Hanifin may not be a lock to fill those holes, but they have a good shot at it.

I guess you have more faith than I do in the players we got back. I definitely don’t see Lindholm as a #1RW and there are five years of history (4 under Peters himself) to back me up on that.

Hanifin might at best become Dougie Hamilton. So we went from a team with two major questions marks to three, while adding a 2nd/3rd line player in the process. Overall I think we got further away from a Stanley Cup roster after yesterday. And the one piece we had that might have addressed that #1RW position (which we have no one even close to filling even now) is gone.

I get it, there were extenuating circumstances that necessitated all three of these players moving on. But the team on the ice will be worse, an we’re basically out of cards to play. I’m sick and tired of watching mediocre hockey and the roster right now seems perfectly primed to provide plenty more of it for years to come.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

In my view Lindholm is barely a top 6 guy and hasn't put up great numbers while playing with the top guys in Carolina. With Aho and Staal he scored 5 goals. With Aho and Teravainen he scored 3. With Skinner and Di Guiseppe (who??) he scored 9. I think the Flames top line needs a guy much better than Lindholm. In this discussion I'm seeing a lot of focus on potential and upside which is great but if Lindholm is still a development exercise it is going to hurt Johnny and Sean. They need a more experienced linemate that is capable of 50 or 60 points right from game 1.

The Flames are still short a top line winger for sure.

To me Lindholm fits in perfect with Backlund and Frolik.

We still need a winger for JG and Monahan, and one for MT and Janko. MAYBE Bennett is the player to fill 1 slot, but I think they need two more pieces before the season starts.

[bigrangy]

The disconnect between Flames management's perspectives on all of the assets involved is what makes me hate this trade. The Flames take is what I get from interpretig the team's actions and all the media rumours that have swirled literally for months

Dougie
My take: Franchise or near franchise defenseman, tied 3rd in u25 career scoring for active defenseman, a bg reason why Gio-Ham was the best pairing in the league, had his offensive game neutered by GG like the rest of the back end. Legitimate 65 point threat from the back end with proper coaching. Only three years left of team control before he probably leaves, which is a bummer

Flames take: elite defenseman, problem child, probably at his peak value, dumb, locker room distraction

Ferland
My take: great power winger, best fighter in the league that can also play hockey (maybe Engelland if you count him), great chemistry with the top line. Decent defensively, and can take players out of games with clean hits. Playoff force. Just scratched the surface of his potential this year, and will be worth a long term contract around 4 mil. He is not Brouwer.

Flames take: another future Brouwer, sell high while the value is high, will be a 3rd liner away from JG and SM, but also a great team piece, playoff warrior, big part of the team and room

Fox
My take: future top 4 PPQB who probably won't sign with the Flames due to D logjam that was entirely self made problem, but should be able to be flipped for a 1st round pick due to extremely elite talent.

Flames take: guy who isn't going to sign so get rid of him

Hanifin
My take: should be roughly as impactful as Hamilton but more of a Hedman/Suter/Giordano type than a Subban/Karlsson/Burns type. Key is proper development. 8-10 years of team control

Flames take: hopefully similar, maybe more optimistic. (If the Flames don't expect him to be an elite first pairing guy then woof)

Lindholm
My take: 45-50 point forward who has been given the opportunity and linemates to reach his offensive potential and has not broken out. Maybe he will become a 70 point guy but I would bet against him scoring more than 55 this year. Is a nice piece because he gives flexibility with C/W positioning and a right hand shot, but he is likely never going to be a star level player offensively, which is what the Flames needed to acquire when sending out their best trade chip. Not going to be worth his contract when he signs for 5 mil. The Flames still need to add a forward better than Lindholm to be competitive.

Flames take: idk but hopefully someone who they think can be a good #1RW and/or #2C. Good right shot for versatility and years of team control vs Ferland being one year from UFA.


The Flames got (way) worse on the ice, but probably upgraded the locker room, and in 3 years, they will probably have more assets remaining out of this trade. I feel like the Flames (and judging by the responses, a lot of Flames fans) are severely underrating Dougie. He deserves to be in that Burns/Subban/Doughty tier of overall impact defensemen and that is why I think this is a bad trade.

I am optimistic about Hanifin and Lindholm though. Hanifin should be a core piece and Lindholm might surprise and become one. They're a lot better than Reinhart, Strome, and Larsson in all probability. At least the Flames didn't trade great players for trash value, they merely got bad value imo.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I get it, there were extenuating circumstances that necessitated all three of these players moving on. But the team on the ice will be worse, an we’re basically out of cards to play. I’m sick and tired of watching mediocre hockey and the roster right now seems perfectly primed to provide plenty more of it for years to come.

I get your concerned based on what we’ve seen from Hamilton, but it’s worth noting that, together, Lindholm and Hanifin represent an offensive upgrade over Hamilton and Ferland, and I think both will have the opportunity to be a BIG upgrade.

Even that aside, while Vegas is not a model by any means, what they HAVE shown is that they way we view what players “are” simply by the opportunities or roles they’ve been put into, especially in young careers, is not likely in line with their limitations. Fact is, Peters obviously vouched for these guys, Treliving isn’t going to start trade talks with Carolina right after hiring Peters just to acquire players Peters doesn’t like. Lindholm and Hanifin are young, and playing with Gaudreau and Gio did wonders for the careers of Ferland and Hamilton, and I don’t doubt Lindholm and Hanifin will get some of those same opportunities.

I see this as a team that got better, and I’m looking forward to them showing it on the ice. The season is months away, how much better can we get? We’ll see.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

The disconnect between Flames management's perspectives on all of the assets involved is what makes me hate this trade. The Flames take is what I get from interpretig the team's actions and all the media rumours that have swirled literally for months

Dougie
My take: Franchise or near franchise defenseman, tied 3rd in u25 career scoring for active defenseman, a bg reason why Gio-Ham was the best pairing in the league, had his offensive game neutered by GG like the rest of the back end. Legitimate 65 point threat from the back end with proper coaching. Only three years left of team control before he probably leaves, which is a bummer

Flames take: elite defenseman, problem child, probably at his peak value, dumb, locker room distraction

Ferland
My take: great power winger, best fighter in the league that can also play hockey (maybe Engelland if you count him), great chemistry with the top line. Decent defensively, and can take players out of games with clean hits. Playoff force. Just scratched the surface of his potential this year, and will be worth a long term contract around 4 mil. He is not Brouwer.

Flames take: another future Brouwer, sell high while the value is high, will be a 3rd liner away from JG and SM, but also a great team piece, playoff warrior, big part of the team and room

Fox
My take: future top 4 PPQB who probably won't sign with the Flames due to D logjam that was entirely self made problem, but should be able to be flipped for a 1st round pick due to extremely elite talent.

Flames take: guy who isn't going to sign so get rid of him

Hanifin
My take: should be roughly as impactful as Hamilton but more of a Hedman/Suter/Giordano type than a Subban/Karlsson/Burns type. Key is proper development. 8-10 years of team control

Flames take: hopefully similar, maybe more optimistic. (If the Flames don't expect him to be an elite first pairing guy then woof)

Lindholm
My take: 45-50 point forward who has been given the opportunity and linemates to reach his offensive potential and has not broken out. Maybe he will become a 70 point guy but I would bet against him scoring more than 55 this year. Is a nice piece because he gives flexibility with C/W positioning and a right hand shot, but he is likely never going to be a star level player offensively, which is what the Flames needed to acquire when sending out their best trade chip. Not going to be worth his contract when he signs for 5 mil. The Flames still need to add a forward better than Lindholm to be competitive.

Flames take: idk but hopefully someone who they think can be a good #1RW and/or #2C. Good right shot for versatility and years of team control vs Ferland being one year from UFA.


The Flames got (way) worse on the ice, but probably upgraded the locker room, and in 3 years, they will probably have more assets remaining out of this trade. I feel like the Flames (and judging by the responses, a lot of Flames fans) are severely underrating Dougie. He deserves to be in that Burns/Subban/Doughty tier of overall impact defensemen and that is why I think this is a bad trade.

I am optimistic about Hanifin and Lindholm though. Hanifin should be a core piece and Lindholm might surprise and become one. They're a lot better than Reinhart, Strome, and Larsson in all probability. At least the Flames didn't trade great players for trash value, they merely got bad value imo.

What team is going to give up a first for a guy they don’t know if they can sign? It’s great that’s what you think he should be worth but you can ignore the signabity issues

[Yrebmi]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Why not?

I mean I have read on here, endlessly, that Sam Bennett is a guy they simply can't trade because...stuff.

Yet in their first 3 full seasons,

Bennett had 88 pts in 240 games.
Yakupov had 88 pts in 192 games.

Logical fallacy everywhere!!!

Yak wasn't traded after those first 3 seasons either. Probably for the same reason we won't trade Sam. There just isn't value to it. Far better to hold on to the player and hope your faith is justified.

On a side note - I am a little surprised that Nail Yakupov is still only 24 years old. I would not be opposed to acquiring him from the discard bin if the coaches felt they could find a serviceable player. Three different teams already though - so I doubt it.

[TheoFleury]

I wish people would stop using draft position to help justify this trade. Who cares if they are former top 5 selections? Those drafts were years ago and (I hope) had no bearing on this trade, though it might help explain it a little if they did.

[Flamette]

I'll preface this by saying I really like Hamilton. On the offensive side of the puck there is no denying his talent. But some are labelling him a "franchise defencemen" and that really should be reserved for players that have the ability to change a game. Is he that type of player? I don't think so but time will tell. And for those who want to argue he's only 25 and still developing, they need to stop discounting Hanifin is 21 and is too.

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by Itse

I don't think it would be a weird statement about Monahan, MacKinnon or Barkov, the other talented 23-year old centers picked before and after him. Lindholm has played 374 NHL games already. It's extremely rare for guys to make significant leaps at that point.

Would you trade Bo Horvat for his upside? Do you still expect Poirier and Klimchuk to make an impact? I wouldn't and I don't. The 2013 drafted forwards for the most part are what they are, in good and in bad.

That's not to say there's zero development left there, but it's very unlikely for these guys to make jumps that end up making a big difference.

What? I'd say 99% of this board thought Monahan was obviously the better player than MacKinnon going into this season. So the last 82 games were that critical? Things change and yeah, we still really don't know if Sam Bennett can be a top line player. I still see it as very possible, not highly unlikely (much moreso than you would believe reading this forum). To your point, Bo Horvat could darn well being a top 5 scorer in the NHL... we really don't know. Look at the leap even Taylor Hall took this year.

Plenty of guys take time to develop into high level NHL players. Chara, Pronger... I watched a lot of these guys and it took them YEARS to become what they are known as now. It's not 'very unlikely.' A lot rides on coaching too, and I think we all agree that GG had many issues. This isn't the NFL, where 21 or 22 year-olds are being drafted. These are comparatively babies who need to be nurtured and developed, and from us as fans given patience.

Because a guy developed in the NHL from the age of 18-21 may or may not have been the best plan for that individual player, but specific performance during that time in the NHL bears as about as much relevance as how they were playing had they been in college or the AHL (or abroad) for that same time frame. I wouldn't get hung up on that.

[SuperMatt18]

Was Hamilton’s pt potential really neutered by GG?

He been a 40-50 pt d-man under Julien, Hartley, and GG - getting into that range 4 seasons under the 3 different coaches.

IMO it’s more likely that’s his point production than he takes the step into 60-70 point range.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Itse

I don't think it would be a weird statement about Monahan, MacKinnon or Barkov, the other talented 23-year old centers picked before and after him. Lindholm has played 374 NHL games already. It's extremely rare for guys to make significant leaps at that point.

Would you trade Bo Horvat for his upside? Do you still expect Poirier and Klimchuk to make an impact? I wouldn't and I don't. The 2013 drafted forwards for the most part are what they are, in good and in bad.

That's not to say there's zero development left there, but it's very unlikely for these guys to make jumps that end up making a big difference.

But last year MacKinnon had just such a significant leap, after playing 300 games.
Improved his prior career best points by 53% (63->97), and the year before by 83% (53->97).
Not saying Lindholm will do that, but there’s certainly reason to believe he can improve.

[Strange Brew]

A day later and overall I am satisfied with the deal, but not in love with it. If you had told me we were trading away Hamilton, Ferland and Fox in one deal I would have hoped we were getting back an elite center that would have seriously solved much of our scoring problems.

I don’t watch much Carolina hockey so I’m very much looking forward to watching these guys next year and see what we get.

[Gaudreau is a Ninja]

Woke up this morning still very happy with the trade. The Flames got younger and faster. Hanifin scored 10 goals and is only 21 years old and is a very fast and smooth skater. Lindholm is obviously not as tough as Ferland but is a way better skater. He scored 16 goals as a 23 year old and didn't play with Johnny and Mony. Hamilton also might be a bit of a problem off the ice and Ferland is unrestricted in one year and will be getting a big raise. Hamilton is going to get a huge raise in 2 years. Tre is going to be able to lock Hanifin and Lindholm for a long time. Fox has signing issues and not sure if he would want to sign in Carolina either. There is a very good chance he wants to finish Harvard then become a free agent. I'm happy with the trade if you look at all the factors. Plus I highly doubt Tre is done upgrading the forward scoring

[dustygoon]

Regarding Lindholm, the guy had superb numbers in the SHL in his draft year...30 points in 48 games.

Eliteprospects has a filter to sort highest per season points over several seasons. You can then filter to just look at U19.

Pretty amazing what comes up.....I can't embed the list, so hit the link

https://www.eliteprospects.com/leagu...ge=u19&sort=tp