[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[rhino]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

The point I am trying to make is he didnt get value. You would also say this no matter what he does. He gave up a rare commodity in the NHL and still added to that to get it done.

2 top 5 picks from the last 5 years is not value? Hanifin is on par with Hamilton at this stage of his career and Lindholm is a very skilled player.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by rhino

2 top 5 picks from the last 5 years is not value? Hanifin is on par with Hamilton at this stage of his career and Lindholm is a very skilled player.

Referring to their draft spots as their value after they've played 3+ years in the league is silly.

Their draft position is irrelevant at this point.

[btimbit]

Crazy that Hanifin is only a year older than Fox and has already played 3 seasons in the NHL

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by New Era

All the arguing back and forth about whether the Flames got the better players really is irrelevant. I like the players that we got back, but they really don’t change the make up of the hockey team or address weakness. The problem that faced the team was a need to get another top six forward that was a proven scorer. Mission NOT accomplished. This was a lateral move in the big picture and did not address the pressing need of the hockey team.

Treliving continues to be very slow at addressing the significant holes in the organization. He loves the big glitzy trades, but he doesn’t address the major needs of the hockey team. We are still without a top RW, a proven scorer, and a long term solution between the pipes. All of these are the problems that faced this team from day one for Treliving, but he has yet to find a way to address the needs. Pretty sad considering the number of high draft picks and assets he’s burned through.

Lindholm is our new top line RW - so I believe our new focus becomes on a 3rd line scoring winger to help balance the scoring, and then the 4th line either gets filled out by youth or through the addition of someone like Derek Ryan.

Given what we've heard from Peters (Lindholm will play with Johnny & Sean, Tkachuk is starting as a RW) I believe this is our line-up:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Bennett - Backlund - Tkachuk
?????? - Jankowski - Frolik
?????? - Shore - Lazar
Brouwer

Giordano - Brodie
Hanifin - Hamonic
Kulak/Andersson/Stone

Smith
Gillies

So now Treliving gets to look to free agency (van Riemsdyk, Neal, Perron, Ryan) and internally (Foo, Mangiapane) to fill out those bottom two lines, and build a forward group that features 4 lines that can produce.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by New Era

All the arguing back and forth about whether the Flames got the better players really is irrelevant. I like the players that we got back, but they really don’t change the make up of the hockey team or address weakness. The problem that faced the team was a need to get another top six forward that was a proven scorer. Mission NOT accomplished. This was a lateral move in the big picture and did not address the pressing need of the hockey team.

Treliving continues to be very slow at addressing the significant holes in the organization. He loves the big glitzy trades, but he doesn’t address the major needs of the hockey team. We are still without a top RW, a proven scorer, and a long term solution between the pipes. All of these are the problems that faced this team from day one for Treliving, but he has yet to find a way to address the needs. Pretty sad considering the number of high draft picks and assets he’s burned through.

Disagree. They needed a RH shot that's proven he can play in the top 6, and they also needed a guy who can play C or W as an insurance policy in case of injuries and/or one of our young C's not stepping up again as a strong 3rd C option.

It's also a bonus that's he strong at face offs, which is something we are severely lacking and is also something that is very important to the new coach.

[rhino]

Originally Posted by nik-

Referring to their draft spots as their value after they've played 3+ years in the league is silly.

Their draft position is irrelevant at this point.

My point is they are young quality players and for anyone on this board who know nothing about the character of the players coming in and going out to imply they are lesser value is ridiculous. This team could become far more cohesive and harder to play against which would make them more valuable....... no? From a positional point of view I don’t believe the Flames became weaker but from a character point of view they could very well have become stronger.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by nik-

Referring to their draft spots as their value after they've played 3+ years in the league is silly.

Their draft position is irrelevant at this point.

Speaks to the pedigree of the players. They acquired two young core pieces
Seems like value to me

[Reign of Fire]

Originally Posted by rhino

2 top 5 picks from the last 5 years is not value?

By this logic, let's get Yakupov

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Speaks to the pedigree of the players. They acquired two young core pieces
Seems like value to me

Ehh, Daniel Tkaczuk and Rico Fata had similar "pedigree".

That they were fifth overall picks is meaningless today. What is meaningful is that both have had some degree of personal success in the NHL, with room still to grow.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

By this logic, let's get Yakupov

Bet the Griffen Reinhart can turn things around

[rhino]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

By this logic, let's get Yakupov

Really?? My follow up post spoke about character.... Tell me why you think Hamilton holds more value then Hanifin? Points? The points don’t matter on a team missing the playoffs! Defence? Hamilton was a -41 in the giveaway/takeaway department, he was a disaster in the defensive zone.... Hanifin only -2. Worst case scenario for Lindholm is given first line minutes he is equal to Ferland and is also a more responsible player defensively. This trade was clearly made to attempt to change the character and give a damn meter on the team while also making them tougher to play against. I think that was achieved but only time will tell.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

By this logic, let's get Yakupov

Nonsense comparison. There is a difference between top 5 picks that have established themselves as contributing NHLers and top 5 picks who haven't.

[CliffFletcher]

Really? Comparing Hanifin and Lindholm to Yakupov and Reinhart?

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Really? Comparing Hanifin and Lindholm to Yakupov and Reinhart?

Who compared them?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Speaks to the pedigree of the players. They acquired two young core pieces
Seems like value to me

Pedigree is irrelevant after you get a decent sample size of play.

Hanifin has value because he's a young defenceman who's improving, not because he was drafted 5th.

Lindholm has already played 5 seasons and has generally put up the same point totals the entire time. His draft slot doesn't add anything to his value that 5 years of play doesn't.

[Robbob]

I was out and about and was on and off catching up in this thread. Initially I also didn't like fox in there but now understanding things, I have no issue. Reading between the lines, it almost seems fox going 4 years was common in Hockey circles. Similar to Hickey, Vessey, etc. A team may try to get the rights to see if they can make it work. Bob MacKenzie comment of 'may be more likely' tells me it is far from a slam dunk for Carolina.

Ferland is a weird one as he is a likeable guy but I think his chemistry over that period with the first line elevated is worth to us Flames fans. He was a good fit in that situation, he wasn't a top line RW by himself. I loved what he brought but it was difficult to determine his worth monetary wise. Going into ufa I don't know if it would have been possible to get the right contract with him.

All comparisons have been done to depth, but one key thing is the room is important. You heard it over and over from the teams that have runs they always mention the group in the room. Vegas went on and on about it. If through the year end meetings there was something identified, and it sounds like there was something lacking in the room, then a change needed to be made. The culture can be as important as a player.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by nik-

Pedigree is irrelevant after you get a decent sample size of play.



Hanifin has value because he's a young defenceman who's improving, not because he was drafted 5th.



Lindholm has already played 5 seasons and has generally put up the same point totals the entire time. His draft slot doesn't add anything to his value that 5 years of play doesn't.

Especially since those numbers were under the exact same coach we just hired. Maybe he gets an extra 10-15 points off the backs of Gaudreau and Monahan but that’s still not super impressive for a team with cup aspirations. He’s a better player than Ferland but not the #1RW this team is still missing.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I think the most interesting part about this trade is the difference, at least for me, between what the story the stats for the Flames players say versus how I actually feel. I preface that I actually liked both Hamilton (thought he was our second best dman) and Ferland a lot. And I do feel like time will tell on this trade but my gut is telling me we actually improved the team by swapping out for different pieces that will help the team long term.

All that said, if you look at the stats, totally get how anyone looking at this could be saying it’s a lateral move at best, or even a loss cause we gave up a 50 point franchise dman for one that MIGHT one day do the same in Hanifin, and we gave up Fox as an asset. The numbers certainly back that story up.

That said, stats aside I can’t stop shaking the following thoughts.

- While Hamilton puts iOS franchise D men numbers, does anyone actually think he’s a franchise Dman.....at least at this moment? He’s not even our best Dman, and losing him certainly doesn’t feel to me like the Habs losing Subban for example, and while I’ve lined Hamilton’s game, I’ve never felt like he takes games over the way franchise dman do.... not to say he won’t down the road.

- looking at the stats as well, I can also see how folks might feel we simply did a lateral on forwards. Yet I’ve never actually felt Ferland is a true top 6 forward, but I feel Lindholm is. Why is that? Regardless, Lindholm certainly seems more versatile and hopefully more consistent.

Fact is, Flames dealt from a position of strength to try and fill weaknesses. In the short term, this deal will be judged on whether Lindholm can legit fill our gapping hole in the top 6, because I do feel the Flames can absorb the loss of Hamilton at least while Gio is still a top flight dman. Long term how Hanifin and Ferland develop could be the kicker. Will Ferland become an elite power forward, or will Ganifin make the jump and completely replace Hamilton?

I do like that we got younger trying to fill the holes on our team.

[Matata]

Fox I don't think is that big of a loss, he's an undersized defender with dynamic offense, decent skating and decent defending. A small defender who can't out muscle or out skate anyone will be hard pressed to find NHL success. I think his best case scenario is probably a 3rd pairing guy who scores 20-30 points a few times, and his worst case scenario is a guy who gets few cups of coffee, but has trouble keeping up and never gets the coaches trust.

[The Boy Wonder]

If you haven’t yet done it go listen to BT talking about the trade on fan960 page. Basically lays out that there were serious signability concerns with fox that had come from his camp. It really made me feel better about trading him, and although I was firmly in the don’t trade Dougie camp I think this is a lateral move towards more controllable assets at worst and an upgrade in a couple years at best.

Ferland gonna get paid if he puts together another 20g season sand I doubt the flames wanted to pay him what that would cost. Hamilton was at peak value and it only decreases from here as he gets to 2 and then 1 year left

Sucks to lose dougie but hopefully hanafin and our young guys on the farm can step up and one will become a legit top pairing guy