2018 World Cup

[Locke]

If any totalitarian regime could do us all a solid favour it would be to have regulations against the use and even existence of vuvuzelas and enforce those regulations with extreme prejudice.

Come on Russia, if for nothing else this is your time to shine.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Beninho

So Messi hasn’t scored vs the best teams in the world? He didn’t take Argentina to the World Cup final? He was a Higuain finish away from being word champion.

https://youtu.be/PtTJLw51c7U

Yes I’d say your assessment of Messi was very much impulsive. But I guess all he does is kick the ball into the wall. I actually couldn’t believe someone was questioning weather Messi or Aguero should take free kicks, that statement alone makes me question if you’ve actually watched Messi over his entire career.

You understand that playing for Barcelona against a largely terrible Spanish League is very different than playing for Argentina at the World Cup right?

That theres like a handful of teams in the world that can even give Barcelona a run for their money? Right?

Very different than playing for Argentina Internationally.

Domestically Lionel Messi plays on a stacked team against woeful minnows. This is not that.

And when push has come to shove he has not risen above. That is not 1 game of inference, its a pattern.

And pointing to his Barcelona career is disingenuous because once again, he plays on one of the most talented teams in the world against other teams that they basically beat without even changing out of first gear.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Locke

You understand that playing for Barcelona against a largely terrible Spanish League is very different than playing for Argentina at the World Cup right?

That theres like a handful of teams in the world that can even give Barcelona a run for their money? Right?

Very different than playing for Argentina Internationally.

Domestically Lionel Messi plays on a stacked team against woeful minnows. This is not that.

And when push has come to shove he has not risen above. That is not 1 game of inference, its a pattern.

And pointing to his Barcelona career is disingenuous because once again, he plays on one of the most talented teams in the world against other teams that they basically beat without even changing out of first gear.

You do understand he’s produced multiple master classes vs Real Madrid and has usually got the better of Ronaldo in el Classicos. I actually can’t believe what I’m reading, Messi has had very little help on the international stage. He’s had games were he’s been shut down and others have failed to produce. Ronaldo has had the same exact thing happen to him for Portugal. Before yesterday he only had 3 World Cup goals. Messi has been the catalyst to 4 CL winning teams and has consistently outplayed Ronaldo in La Liga. Ronaldo hasn’t played on great teams either? Your argument is flawed on multiple levels and I question how much you’ve actually watched him play. He’s only good because he’s on Barcelona? That’s the most blasphemous thing I’ve ever heard. Again Ronaldo has had numerous games where he’s been neutralized, many in the World Cup. His 3 goals before yesterday were vs Iran and North Korea. Your statements are making it seem like Ronaldo never fails to produce. Like I said earlier he was pretty much neutralized in the semi finals and finals of the CL. He got help where Messi has not. He played a great game yesterday but please don’t pretend like that’s how every game he’s played in the World Cup has gone.

Sorry I forgot how superior the premier league is and Messi hasn’t dominated man city, Chelsea last year, Manchester United and others throughout his career. I can’t reiterate how incorrect your assessment of him is, it’s actually painful to read and I question if you actually watch him play on a weekly basis. Please go re-watch what he had to do to even get Argentina to the World Cup. Give your head a shake

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Locke

If any totalitarian regime could do us all a solid favour it would be to have regulations against the use and even existence of vuvuzelas and enforce those regulations with extreme prejudice.

Come on Russia, if for nothing else this is your time to shine.

Those horns have been a thing in Russia way longer than anyone in Europe heard of a vuvuzela.

In other news, Peru - Denmark is a good game. Solid goaltending both ways, could easily be couple more goals both ways.

Weirdly nostalgic to see Smeichel rule in Denmarks goal again. (His dad was also a star goalie.)

[White Out 403]

Man, the arrogance. The Spanish league isn't terrible: the opinions on Messi are.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Beninho

You do understand he’s produced multiple master classes vs Real Madrid and has usually got the better of Ronaldo in el Classicos. I actually can’t believe what I’m reading, Messi has had very little help on the international stage. He’s had games were he’s been shut down and others have failed to produce. Ronaldo has had the same exact thing happen to him for Portugal. Before yesterday he only had 3 World Cup goals. Messi has been the catalyst to 4 CL winning teams and has consistently outplayed Ronaldo in La Liga. Ronaldo hasn’t played on great teams either? Your argument is flawed on multiple levels and I question how much you’ve actually watched him play. He’s only good because he’s on Barcelona? That’s the most blasphemous thing I’ve ever heard.

Sorry I forgot how superior the premier league is and Messi hasn’t dominated man city, Chelsea last year, Manchester United and others throughout his career. I can’t reiterate how incorrect your assessment of him is, it’s actually painful to read and I question if you actually watch him play on a weekly basis. Please go re-watch what he had to do to even get Argentina to the World Cup. Give your head a shake

Okay, I think we're ships in the night here.

I'm not saying that Messi is no good or anything like that. But again, all of the examples that you're pointing to are with Barcelona. One of the most talented and expensive teams on the face of the Earth.

Remember when I said 'this is not that?' Yeah. This is not that. Argentina would be torn apart by Barcelona even if Messi was playing for the Albiceleste.

Overall, my point is that while Messi is one of the best players in the world, this is still a team game and frankly, I think the Argentine coaching is one of the worst.

Your tactics have to suit your team, Argentina has tons and tons of talent, and right now what they're doing is effectively what Brazil has done for years and thats 'favour the superstar.'

Sorry, the game has evolved beyond that, other team members have to produce and by favouring the superstar in Messi you're bypassing other very talented players and making your team easy to shut down.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Locke

Okay, I think we're ships in the night here.

I'm not saying that Messi is no good or anything like that. But again, all of the examples that you're pointing to are with Barcelona. One of the most talented and expensive teams on the face of the Earth.

Remember when I said 'this is not that?' Yeah. This is not that. Argentina would be torn apart by Barcelona even if Messi was playing for the Albiceleste.

Overall, my point is that while Messi is one of the best players in the world, this is still a team game and frankly, I think the Argentine coaching is one of the worst.

Your tactics have to suit your team, Argentina has tons and tons of talent, and right now what they're doing is effectively what Brazil has done for years and thats 'favour the superstar.'

Sorry, the game has evolved beyond that, other team members have to produce and by favouring the superstar in Messi you're bypassing other very talented players and making your team easy to shut down.

I think I’m confused on what you are saying. Yes Argentina has not been able to figure out how to be successful without the play going through Messi. Messi has had little help and has had games where he’s played bad for Argentina. My major issue with what you are saying is that you are making it seem like Ronaldo has never been neutralized and has never failed big time at a World Cup. The last 3 world cups he’s played in have been failures. You began crapping on Messi because he didn’t hit a free kick like Ronaldo did and claimed he’s only good from open play. I just can’t read that without calling you out on that complete non sense. That’s what made me state your clearly talking impulsively because again Messi has a track record that proves you to be incorrect. You can enjoy both players without completely tearing down the other, Messi has to be better going forward for Argentina in this tournament but do not say he’s been a choker for Argentina his whole career. That’s just a massive lie.

I’ve seen what he can do for Barcelona and against Brazil for more than a decade, you would be extremely naive to believe Messi can’t take over games for Argentina. He’s done so numerous times

[Locke]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

Man, the arrogance. The Spanish league isn't terrible: the opinions on Messi are.

First of all, yes it is.

Secondly, this isnt about Messi not being any good, its about the usage of Messi on his national team versus Barcelona and the fact that just pointing at Messi's stats are disingenuous because Messi on Barcelona in Spain would be like an adult playing against children. Yeah, you're going to rack up a ton of goals because your opposition sucks.

Thats not an indictment of Messi, its just showing that the comparison is not of equal merit.

He is still either the best or at least among the very best players in the world.

His usage at National Team level is atrocious.

Argentina should not be basically praying that Messi can haul their ass out of the fire all the time. That is ridiculous. They have so much talent. They should be employing Messi to push them over the top, not do all of the heavy lifting all the time.

Thats my point.

Not that Messi is anything less than one of the best players in the world, but the fact that hes being applied inappropriately.

Its interesting the comparison between Messi and Ronaldo. If I had to sum it up succinctly I'd say:

Ronaldo isnt always involved. And then he burns you with his skill. Thats his danger.

Messi is relied upon heavily to do a lot of the work for Argentina, and then after all that you're asking him to do even more.

Its a flawed strategy.

Thats it.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I think I’m confused on what you are saying. Yes Argentina has not been able to figure out how to be successful without the play going through Messi. Messi has had little help and has had games where he’s played bad for Argentina. My major issue with what you are saying is that you are making it seem like Ronaldo has never been neutralized and has never failed big time at a World Cup. The last 3 world cups he’s played in have been failures. You began crapping on Messi because he didn’t hit a free kick like Ronaldo did and he’s only good from open play. I just can’t read that without calling you out on that complete non sense. That’s what made me state your clearly talking impulsively because again Messi has a track record that proves you to be incorrect. You can enjoy both players without completely tearing down the other, Messi has to be better going forward for Argentina in this tournament but do not say he’s been a choker for Argentina his whole career. That’s just a massive lie

I think my last post kind of got to it, but I'll be clearer.

Argentina is not Barcelona and Messi is one of the best players in the world, if not the best. But he is not being played effectively within the Argentinian system.

I dont have a horse in the race between Ronaldo and Messi. I really dont care. But I will say that the application of Ronaldo for his National Team is tactically superior to Messi's application for his.

That is not on the players.

I almost guarantee you that Messi would have a much more illustrious international career if their coach trusted someone else on the team from time to time.

I said it in my initial post about this, Argentina look like Messi and 10 other random dudes.

Thats not going to work.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Locke

I think my last post kind of got to it, but I'll be clearer.

Argentina is not Barcelona and Messi is one of the best players in the world, if not the best. But he is not being played effectively within the Argentinian system.

I dont have a horse in the race between Ronaldo and Messi. I really dont care. But I will say that the application of Ronaldo for his National Team is tactically superior to Messi's application for his.

That is not on the players.

I almost guarantee you that Messi would have a much more illustrious international career if their coach trusted someone else on the team from time to time.

I said it in my initial post about this, Argentina look like Messi and 10 other random dudes.

Thats not going to work.

See I comepletely agree with you about his usage on the national team, my original issue was with how you were comparing both Ronaldo and Messi and questioning Messi’s ability to score timely clutch free kicks or play big in big moments. I felt you were being impluslive with your take when disregarding what Messi has actually done.

[GirlySports]

I'm looking forward to the next game. Should be lots of goals!

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Beninho

See I comepletely agree with you about his usage on the national team, my original issue was with how you were comparing both Ronaldo and Messi and questioning Messi’s ability to score timely clutch free kicks or play big in big moments. I felt you were being impluslive with your take when disregarding what Messi has actually done.

Well you're right and wrong. I was criticizing him for his play in critical moments, but even over his whole career I think thats a fair criticism. Yes, he has had moments where he surmounts all odds, but he has also had moments where he has not.

Just today he missed a penalty and struck the last kick of the game into the wall. Again, that is a 1-game thing, but he has done it before and my point isnt that Messi sucks in the clutch its that for Argentina he is basically asked to do everything and that is stupid considering the veritable cornucopia of talent that they have at their disposal.

I was not insinuating that hes no good, he is arguably the world's best player.

But as a player for Argentina he should be the piece that takes you over the top, not the guy that has to do everything.

Thats the comparison to Ronaldo.

Portugal, in my opinion, has significantly less talent than Argentina, but their strategy is very simple, they do their jobs, maintain their shape and system and then let Ronaldo get them the goals that they need.

Thats a fairly sound strategy.

Conversely, Argentina rely on Messi to do everything for them. Its a very 'Oilers' strategy.

You mentioned that just to qualify Messi had to have a God-like qualifying campaign. Why? Its not like they dont have other talent. I hear that Aguero guy scores goals from time to time for some third rate team like Manchester City?

"We have the best player in the world, he'll take care of everything so we can all just sit back and relax."

And thats stupid. You never go full Oilers.

[Strange Brew]

Danes win over Peru but man that was white knuckle time. Like father like son for Danish goalie.

[White Out 403]

What a fantastic story about the Croatian soccer community in Toronto. Terrific.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Locke

First of all, yes it is.

Secondly, this isnt about Messi not being any good, its about the usage of Messi on his national team versus Barcelona and the fact that just pointing at Messi's stats are disingenuous because Messi on Barcelona in Spain would be like an adult playing against children. Yeah, you're going to rack up a ton of goals because your opposition sucks.

Thats not an indictment of Messi, its just showing that the comparison is not of equal merit.

He is still either the best or at least among the very best players in the world.

His usage at National Team level is atrocious.

Argentina should not be basically praying that Messi can haul their ass out of the fire all the time. That is ridiculous. They have so much talent. They should be employing Messi to push them over the top, not do all of the heavy lifting all the time.

Thats my point.

Not that Messi is anything less than one of the best players in the world, but the fact that hes being applied inappropriately.

Its interesting the comparison between Messi and Ronaldo. If I had to sum it up succinctly I'd say:

Ronaldo isnt always involved. And then he burns you with his skill. Thats his danger.

Messi is relied upon heavily to do a lot of the work for Argentina, and then after all that you're asking him to do even more.

Its a flawed strategy.

Thats it.

I've read some odd comments the last few pages, but this takes the cake.

[GirlySports]

Lovrens knocked someone over already.

[jammies]

Since I can't cheer *against* Italy this time, I think Nigeria is a good team to back. Wanting world-class divebaby Ronaldo to fail won't sustain me though the entire tournament.

[White Out 403]

Nigerians appearing to be parking the bus early..

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well you're right and wrong. I was criticizing him for his play in critical moments, but even over his whole career I think thats a fair criticism. Yes, he has had moments where he surmounts all odds, but he has also had moments where he has not.

Just today he missed a penalty and struck the last kick of the game into the wall. Again, that is a 1-game thing, but he has done it before and my point isnt that Messi sucks in the clutch its that for Argentina he is basically asked to do everything and that is stupid considering the veritable cornucopia of talent that they have at their disposal.

I was not insinuating that hes no good, he is arguably the world's best player.

But as a player for Argentina he should be the piece that takes you over the top, not the guy that has to do everything.

Thats the comparison to Ronaldo.

Portugal, in my opinion, has significantly less talent than Argentina, but their strategy is very simple, they do their jobs, maintain their shape and system and then let Ronaldo get them the goals that they need.

Thats a fairly sound strategy.

Conversely, Argentina rely on Messi to do everything for them. Its a very 'Oilers' strategy.

You mentioned that just to qualify Messi had to have a God-like qualifying campaign. Why? Its not like they dont have other talent. I hear that Aguero guy scores goals from time to time for some third rate team like Manchester City?

"We have the best player in the world, he'll take care of everything so we can all just sit back and relax."

And thats stupid. You never go full Oilers.

I think that’s where I think you are having a confirmation bias. Yes Messi has missed penalties for Argentina in high profile games, he also played a terrific World Cup in 2014 and if he had any sort of decent help he probably would’ve won it. Again Ronaldo played a superb game yesterday but he’s also had many games for Portugal and Real Madrid where he’s been neutralized. That’s my issue with your first few posts, that you are making Ronaldo seem like he was impervious to games where he’s been shut down. Both players are human and both have had games where they’ve been invisible. Ronaldo in the last few years while, playing amazing in multiple high level tournaments,has had more help then Messi has gotten in certain big games where they both have not been up to their standards.

I think your view of La Liga is entirely off and I think you missed or just have forgotten some incredible things Messi has done in massive games. Wouldn’t write him off just yet

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Locke

First of all, yes it is.

Terrible compared to what?

The champion's league?

It's arguably the best league in Europe.