2017-18 Toronto Raptors and General NBA Thread

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

No they wouldn't be lol. Why? Adding DeRozan means they get to fight with the Nuggets for the 8 seed, maybe. And did you actually watch any Grizzlies last year? They lost 19 games in a row because they were tanking. They aren't going from "let's get young guys" to "lets get an in-prime star". I mean dare to dream, but no. No one in the top 5 would want DeRozan. At best, you can flip him to the Knicks for #9 or Hornets at #11, but that's still not good value. Highly, highly unlikely the #9 or #11 pick will ever be better than DeRozan.

My point about the Spurs and Warriors is you don't have to go full Process to build a team. You can find elite players in the draft outside the top 5. And it's also worth remembering the Process involved a big amount of luck. After all Embiid dropped to #3 despite being the consensus best player. The Sixers might have drafted Wiggins instead, and they'd be a likely also-ran rather than budding contender.

Well the raptors won’t be getting anyone this year so we are supposed to stay with this lousy choking core for how much longer? And then get nothing for them? And Memphis is locked in to Conely and Gasol, they may be interested in Derozan

[Jason14h]

And let's not forget that Philly hasn't won anything yet! It looks promising on paper, but without Lebron joining them next season or leaving that conference, they are probably in the exact same position as the Raptors next season.

Do we really want the Raptors the pull a Philly for the next 4 years, for a CHANCE at being good? That's Oilers talk right there!~

The NBA needs to remove the single player salary max. That way you don't end up with 2 (let alone 3 or 4) super stars on 1 team. Do you really think Durant is playing for GS if the Knicks or Lakers can offer him 75 million (Well yes cause Nike is paying him to play there to fight the Under Armor appeal of Curry, but let's pretend!)

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Well the raptors won’t be getting anyone this year so we are supposed to stay with this lousy choking core for how much longer? And then get nothing for them? And Memphis is locked in to Conely and Gasol, they may be interested in Derozan

The East is playing "Lebrons leaves or gets hurt or we can't make the finals anyways"

Without Lebron Raptors cruise to the finals last season.

They can't beat him. Simple. They would have put up a better fight vs GS in my opinion and at least won a game.

And Lebron isn't getting any worst or going anywhere anytime soon. I guess pray he decides to try and bring the Lakers back to their glory???

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The East is playing "Lebrons leaves or gets hurt or we can't make the finals anyways"

Without Lebron Raptors cruise to the finals last season.

They can't beat him. Simple. They would have put up a better fight vs GS in my opinion and at least won a game.

And Lebron isn't getting any worst or going anywhere anytime soon. I guess pray he decides to try and bring the Lakers back to their glory???

That's a massive if, they probably lose to the Celtics. It's just pointless to invest any more in this core and current team, until they gut the team and get actual elite peices there is no point in continuing to build. They have awful contracts, 2 players who are good but can't do enough vs actual good teams and a front office that seems confused on where they should be going with this team. I think all things point to an entire tear down, whats the point of delaying the inevitable. Like they arent gonna win a champinship anyways, core is not young enough to outlast the warriors or lebron, they have no chance of beating either as well, this season was their best chance to beat lebron and they couldn't even win a game. Not 1 lousy game. The probability of this team with its current core winning a championship is somewhere around .000001%. What's the point. Don't give me the winning culutre BS, they have yet to beat a good team in the playoffs

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Well the raptors won’t be getting anyone this year so we are supposed to stay with this lousy choking core for how much longer? And then get nothing for them? And Memphis is locked in to Conely and Gasol, they may be interested in Derozan

So basically your hope is other teams are extremely inept and help the Raptors that way. I mean I guess that's a strategy. But you mentioned Conley and Gasol are locked in, well yeah, that's why the Raps are screwed for the next two years, they are locked into Lowry and Ibaka with no chance of trading them. Even adding DeRozan doesn't get them much past the first round, and they would give up meaningful assets to get him. It'd be great if they were that stupid though, but I don't really think relying on the stupidity of others is a good idea. Even the Celtics in their wildest dreams couldn't have imagined what their ultimate haul for Garnett and Pierce would end up being.

For the Raptors, all their best assets (i.e. coveted by other teams) to trade are young guys, and JV. And all you're getting for those are draft picks, maybe you get lucky and get a lottery pick or two out of that. At the end of the day, they don't have a lot of moves to make that are logical. Sadly they are stuck hoping for some luck. With the beauty of hindsight, trading Lowry way back when would have been ideal. But it's not, so here we are.

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The NBA needs to remove the single player salary max. That way you don't end up with 2 (let alone 3 or 4) super stars on 1 team. Do you really think Durant is playing for GS if the Knicks or Lakers can offer him 75 million (Well yes cause Nike is paying him to play there to fight the Under Armor appeal of Curry, but let's pretend!)

We all know this is the real issue, but it doesn't seem the NBA has much interest in changing it.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

So basically your hope is other teams are extremely inept and help the Raptors that way. I mean I guess that's a strategy. But you mentioned Conley and Gasol are locked in, well yeah, that's why the Raps are screwed for the next two years, they are locked into Lowry and Ibaka with no chance of trading them. Even adding DeRozan doesn't get them much past the first round, and they would give up meaningful assets to get him. It'd be great if they were that stupid though, but I don't really think relying on the stupidity of others is a good idea. Even the Celtics in their wildest dreams couldn't have imagined what their ultimate haul for Garnett and Pierce would end up being.

For the Raptors, all their best assets (i.e. coveted by other teams) to trade are young guys, and JV. And all you're getting for those are draft picks, maybe you get lucky and get a lottery pick or two out of that. At the end of the day, they don't have a lot of moves to make that are logical. Sadly they are stuck hoping for some luck. With the beauty of hindsight, trading Lowry way back when would have been ideal. But it's not, so here we are. Raptors future will mirror the Hawks and a full-scale tear down is going to happen.



We all know this is the real issue, but it doesn't seem the NBA has much interest in changing it.

I'm of the mindset is you take what you can get, get a haul of picks for all I care. Something you can build the future with, how awful would it be if in 3 years the Raptors have zero to show for this team and have to start a rebuild with the bare minimum. That's my biggest concern.

And I feel like there is much more of a chance that Masai could make a great trade for futures then actually getting a piece that would make the raptors legit contenders, it's a shame Mitchell didn't go into the draft 2 drafts ago because he is that type of player but the raptors never get that sort of luck. That Knicks pick was the raps best bet at getting another star and they drafted a low upside player with limited offensive ability. Wasn't a great draft but just shows that the raptors don't get the luck that the warriors, spurs, or others have gotten. Raptors future will mirror the Hawks, a team that was good but no elite players, a full scale tear down is going to happen and there is no point in waiting. Not one player on this team is worth being tied to.

[Senator Clay Davis]

But Lowry and Ibaka won't net you anything now. Next year they'll be easier to trade on expirings. But even trading them, the remainder is good enough for the playoffs in the East. Part of the problem is the East sucks and being bad enough to tank is hard. And if you dump DeMar, you need negative value to start tanking. It really sucks where the Raps currently are. Just gotta hope for something magic to happen.

And that's the draft isn't it? Bruno went at 20 in the same draft Jokic went at 41. If the redraft were done right now Jokic goes #2 after Embiid and Bruno goes undrafted. It's a crapshoot. So we hope the Raps can eventually get a superstar somewhere. But that's most teams.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I'm of the mindset is you take what you can get, get a haul of picks for all I care. Something you can build the future with, how awful would it be if in 3 years the Raptors have zero to show for this team and have to start a rebuild with the bare minimum. That's my biggest concern.

And I feel like there is much more of a chance that Masai could make a great trade for futures then actually getting a piece that would make the raptors legit contenders, it's a shame Mitchell didn't go into the draft 2 drafts ago because he is that type of player but the raptors never get that sort of luck. That Knicks pick was the raps best bet at getting another star and they drafted a low upside player with limited offensive ability. Wasn't a great draft but just shows that the raptors don't get the luck that the warriors, spurs, or others have gotten. Raptors future will mirror the Hawks, a team that was good but no elite players, a full scale tear down is going to happen and there is no point in waiting. Not one player on this team is worth being tied to.

the team is structured for a tear down after this season when you can trade Lowry and Ibaka's expiring contracts to teams that can use the cap space to go after stars (Since non are coming to Toronto as FA's)

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

^While probably true, the counter is had the Warriors had Iguodala in games 4 and 5, they likely win one of those, and probably win in 6. Now I realize the counter to that is "Is four All-Stars and two surefire HOFers not enough?". And while that's definitely a valid point, it doesn't change the value Iguodala brings. Even though Durant was amazing last night, Iguodala made some big plays last night too, and his intelligence on the floor can't be underestimated. Not sure they win last night without him.

As far as holding big leads, have we not gotten use to that this postseason? The Warriors generally only play one quarter at full effort, and that's the third which they've dominated at an absurd level this year. They skate through the first half, and then turn it on. Jason14h said it, but it seems like most nights the biggest opponent they are fighting is boredom.

Well yeah there are a bunch of what if’s but the Rockets came awfully damn close and a major injury had a huge impact on last two games.

Sports has been full of dynasties. Bulls, Celtics, Lakers, Islanders, Habs, Oilers, Yankees etc. I don’t believe it means the sport is broken. My best memories as a Flames fan are when Oilers were a dynasty and Flames were competing like hell to topple them.

As a Rockets fan, it’s disappointing they lost but it was a very compelling season. Parity sounds great but it’s great to have a team to hate too.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well yeah there are a bunch of what if’s but the Rockets came awfully damn close and a major injury had a huge impact on last two games.

Sports has been full of dynasties. Bulls, Celtics, Lakers, Islanders, Habs, Oilers, Yankees etc. I don’t believe it means the sport is broken. My best memories as a Flames fan are when Oilers were a dynasty and Flames were competing like hell to topple them.

As a Rockets fan, it’s disappointing they lost but it was a very compelling season. Parity sounds great but it’s great to have a team to hate too.

What's broken about it is the mindset to burn it down to nothing...lose to win.
That's not how that Flames team or the Oilers team was built.
The NBA problem is that coupled with that you basically also have to be a destination where a couple stars agree to go together to win.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

What's broken about it is the mindset to burn it down to nothing...lose to win.
That's not how that Flames team or the Oilers team was built.
The NBA problem is that coupled with that you basically also have to be a destination where a couple stars agree to go together to win.

Neither the Rockets nor the Warriors burned it down to nothing to get to be this good. Not the Spurs. Cavs. Heat. Celtics. Hell in hockey teams out of the playoffs hold fire sales every year at the trade deadline.

Basketball is a game where one or two great players make all the difference. You can’t change that about the game. Bird, Magic, Jordan were all drafted by their team. Was it better to have champions determined in the draft?

Not everyone is a big basketball fan and so it’s easy to find fault with the game but I believe the NBA is as interesting as it has ever been.

[Jason14h]

But those example are all flawed, and actually prove the point. They all involved high draft picks.



Cleveland didn't tear it down? They have had 4 first overall picks in the last 15 years


Houston - Superstar FA Harden joined their team (3rd overall pick) (Then Chris Paul a #4 pick)- Not happening to Toronto that these FA's come. But even then they were both top picks.



Spurs - Drafted Duncan 1st overall. They built a team around him for 15 years. Since he left how have they done? Hint - Same as Raptors


Celtics - They pulled off the greatest trade in pro-sports history. So yes they are an example of how it could be done, if you can make the best trade in history of any sport.



Heat - Umm Lebron (1st pick) Bosh, (4th) and Wade (5th) decided to team up and make a super team.



GS - The one example of actually drafting semi lower and being elite. And then they have a #2 overall join them.


So you are correct that you don't have to burn it down to get these picks and draft the players. Other teams can pick them, and they can leave for your team

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well yeah there are a bunch of what if’s but the Rockets came awfully damn close and a major injury had a huge impact on last two games.

Sports has been full of dynasties. Bulls, Celtics, Lakers, Islanders, Habs, Oilers, Yankees etc. I don’t believe it means the sport is broken. My best memories as a Flames fan are when Oilers were a dynasty and Flames were competing like hell to topple them.

As a Rockets fan, it’s disappointing they lost but it was a very compelling season. Parity sounds great but it’s great to have a team to hate too.

I mean I don't disagree that sport is full of dynasties, but a lot of those dynasties occurred in the salary cap-less era. In the era of the cap, dynasties like the Patriots are incredible, but even then we're talking 5 rings in 15 years. The Warriors are a Draymond nut kick away from their fourth straight title, with the possibility of it becoming six or seven in a row. As those third quarter stats show, when they are 100% engaged, they literally are unbeatable.

As far as a team to hate, the only reason people now hate them is Durant. People loved the Warriors when they were going 73-9, because they were a ton of fun to watch play. Once Durant joined it become another Yankees-like Evil Empire.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Not everyone is a big basketball fan and so it’s easy to find fault with the game but I believe the NBA is as interesting as it has ever been.

I think the on the floor product itself is as good as it's ever been, but being interesting? Not really. The interest actually is all about the summers mostly. I mean consider this summer, the top three players in the league, LeBron, Durant, Kawhi, are possibly all available to move to another team (Kawhi is obviously more complicated). And this will be the second time in three years both LeBron and Durant are available . The NBA hot stove is far more interesting than the league itself.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I mean I don't disagree that sport is full of dynasties, but a lot of those dynasties occurred in the salary cap-less era. In the era of the cap, dynasties like the Patriots are incredible, but even then we're talking 5 rings in 15 years. The Warriors are a Draymond nut kick away from their fourth straight title, with the possibility of it becoming six or seven in a row. As those third quarter stats show, when they are 100% engaged, they literally are unbeatable.

As far as a team to hate, the only reason people now hate them is Durant. People loved the Warriors when they were going 73-9, because they were a ton of fun to watch play. Once Durant joined it become another Yankees-like Evil Empire.



I think the on the floor product itself is as good as it's ever been, but being interesting? Not really. The interest actually is all about the summers mostly. I mean consider this summer, the top three players in the league, LeBron, Durant, Kawhi, are possibly all available to move to another team (Kawhi is obviously more complicated). And this will be the second time in three years both LeBron and Durant are available . The NBA hot stove is far more interesting than the league itself.

Durant confirmed before last game he was returning to the Warriors.


EDIT: And again today


http://news.abs-cbn.com/sports/06/08...ng-to-warriors

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

But those example are all flawed, and actually prove the point. They all involved high draft picks.



Cleveland didn't tear it down? They have had 4 first overall picks in the last 15 years


Houston - Superstar FA Harden joined their team (3rd overall pick) (Then Chris Paul a #4 pick)- Not happening to Toronto that these FA's come. But even then they were both top picks.



Spurs - Drafted Duncan 1st overall. They built a team around him for 15 years. Since he left how have they done? Hint - Same as Raptors


Celtics - They pulled off the greatest trade in pro-sports history. So yes they are an example of how it could be done, if you can make the best trade in history of any sport.



Heat - Umm Lebron (1st pick) Bosh, (4th) and Wade (5th) decided to team up and make a super team.



GS - The one example of actually drafting semi lower and being elite. And then they have a #2 overall join them.


So you are correct that you don't have to burn it down to get these picks and draft the players. Other teams can pick them, and they can leave for your team

All of the best players are high picks.

But Rockets, Heat, Celtics didn’t draft those players. Harden was actually a trade BTW. So I don’t believe tanking has shown to be the way to a championship. You find great players in draft, trades and free agency. The only team there that was truly awful before great was Spurs and I suppose Cavs version 1. So this idea you need to tear it all down to be successful is not borne out by history IMO.

How are superstars acquired in the NHL?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I mean I don't disagree that sport is full of dynasties, but a lot of those dynasties occurred in the salary cap-less era. In the era of the cap, dynasties like the Patriots are incredible, but even then we're talking 5 rings in 15 years. The Warriors are a Draymond nut kick away from their fourth straight title, with the possibility of it becoming six or seven in a row. As those third quarter stats show, when they are 100% engaged, they literally are unbeatable.

And a Chris Paul hamstring strain away from being stuck on 2 titles.

My point is, I find the idea of building a team to try and beat the Warriors as interesting as wondering which team might emerge to win out of nowhere in any given year.

[Senator Clay Davis]

But I don't really like the idea of it being only one team who can possibly beat the Warriors. We just watched the Jags almost beat the Patriots, the equivalent of the Jazz beating the Warriors. That'd be pretty cool to see, that level of unpredictability. Instead next year it'll the Warriors as favorites, with whatever team gets LeBron as second favorites (or Houston probably slightly ahead of the Warriors if they get him), and everyone else put into also ran territory. Now the summer is gonna be fun to wildly speculate which stars end up where, but like I said once LeBron decides, we're basically counting down to Warriors-LeBron 5. I still love watching basketball, but I watch because I love the sport, not because I find the league very intriguing right now.

[Strange Brew]

I could be wrong (usually am) but I don’t think Warriors are getting any better. I don’t believe Rockets are serious candidates for LeBron but I believe there could be 3 or 4 possible challengers for it all next year. LeBron, Celtics, 76ers, Rockets...

I mean there was no doubt the Bulls would win all those championships but that great NBA basketball.

[Scornfire]

The trade market in the NBA must suck something awful with 20some teams constantly in seller mode

[bluejays]

If I had time to go through every team and narrow it down to the top 5 candidates where Lebron would go that would be interesting. My guess is he's looking for the following:
1) Maximizing money (so a tax beneficial city)
2) Easier on the body during the regular season
3) A better calibre team, (probably the East as it's easier)
4) A team to maximize his marketing brand (like a NY)