Building The 2018/19 Flames Roster

[djsFlames]

The Jets also looked like a lot of meh results wise despite having talent and were largely seen as behind Calgary as recently as a year ago. They found their footing and put it together pretty quickly. I can see the same thing with the Flames with the right next couple acquisitions and a more suitable system. There's 'immediate' potential there, even if it wasn't realized in the most recent season. A lot went wrong when it came to the entire group of top scorers, which would've hampered other teams in the same way.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Lightning gained Stamkos, Sergachev and Gourde. Point broke out in his sophomore season. That's a huge improvement from their 2017 team, as all they lost was Drouin. Their second best defenseman and second, third and fourth point producers are huge changes to a team.

Maybe Tkachuk improves like Point and Laine did (not necessarily to Laine's level but improve by 10+ goals).

But the Flames don't have a Stamkos coming in, or a Gourde or Sergachev. Again, sort of poor comparisons to make when these teams made significant improvements in the off-season. If the Flames make similar improvements then it makes sense to compare.

[Enoch Root]

Lightning gained Stamkos?

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Mattman

If I could build on this point, while I do agree with this statement that they should spread the depth and scoring threats to the 2nd and 3rd lines, they shouldn't be going out to get 2nd and 3rd line players.

For example Pittsburgh had Crosby, Malkin and Kessel on three different lines at one point. All 1st line players clearly, but as one poster mentioned you can't have your 3 best players all on one line.

I think people put too much emphasis on 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th lines as a label that sticks to that player. And in the case of Michael Ferland, no he is not a 1st line player, but he is a complementary peice that has proven he can play on a line with Mony and Johnny which so happens to get alot of ice time.

Sure you can, to name a few:

Marchand-Bergeron-Pasternak
Smith-Karlsson-Marchessault
Arvidsson-Johansen-Forsberg
Giroux-Couturier-Voracek
Schwartz-Schenn-Tarasenko

It works best when you have enough depth to allow the lesser lines to have some talent on it too but it happens and some of those lines are on pretty good teams.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Lightning gained Stamkos, Sergachev and Gourde. Point broke out in his sophomore season. That's a huge improvement from their 2017 team, as all they lost was Drouin. Their second best defenseman and second, third and fourth point producers are huge changes to a team.

Maybe Tkachuk improves like Point and Laine did (not necessarily to Laine's level but improve by 10+ goals).

But the Flames don't have a Stamkos coming in, or a Gourde or Sergachev. Again, sort of poor comparisons to make when these teams made significant improvements in the off-season. If the Flames make similar improvements then it makes sense to compare.

So you're saying we don't currently compare favourably to the teams that made the East / West conference finals?

Keen observation.

Regardless of that, we have some outstanding and excellent young talent regardless of having missed the playoffs this year. Do we have work to do? Absolutely, but RRR laughing at people here for being excited about our team was garbage.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by RoughRiderRowdy

We missed the playoffs last year and apparently our team is loaded with excellent outstanding players. I get such a laugh reading these posts

Considering the difference between making the playoffs in 2017 to missing in 2018 were essentially things like:

Going from Alex Chiasson's 12 goals to Garnet Hathaway's 2 goals
Going from Kris Versteeg's 16 power play points to Mark Jankowski's 3 power play points
Going from Michael Frolik's 44 points to Michael Frolik's 25 points
Going from Troy Brouwer's 13 goals to Troy Brouwer's 6 goals
Going from 3C Sam Bennett's 32 xGA (~1000 minutes) to 3C Mark Jankowski's 31 xGA (~800 minutes)

There really isn't a whole lot laughable. Small things like swapping Bennett and Jankowski as centers, getting 3rd liner performance from some third liners, and finding a cheap power play wizard, and never seeing Garnet Hathaway in a top nine role ever again can make a huge difference.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Lightning gained Stamkos?

Yes, he went down at the beginning of the year in 2016-2017. Didn't play past November. (And when he went down, the Lightning were in the playoffs). Apparently losing your best player for the season effects how well you do, who knew.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

So you're saying we don't currently compare favourably to the teams that made the East / West conference finals?

Keen observation.

I wasn't the one bringing those teams up as examples.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Yes, he went down at the beginning of the year in 2017. Didn't play past November. (And when he went down, the Lightning were in the playoffs). Apparently losing your best player for the season effects how well you do, who knew.

Or losing your best players for extended periods during a season. Who knew.

Monahan injured in December, plays through injury, shut down in March
Tkachuk injured during playoff push
Smith injured while in playoff race

[Oling_Roachinen]

There's a lot difference between losing Tkachuk for 10 games and Stamkos for 65.

But yes, I never argued anything badly against the Flames. I just think bringing up Tampa and Winnipeg as reasons for a team to improve are poor given the circumstances around why they improved.

I mean, whatever team brings in Tavares (assuming they don't lose much in doing so) should be expected to improve using Tampa and Winnipeg as examples.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

But yes, I never argued anything badly against the Flames. I just think bringing up Tampa and Winnipeg as reasons for a team to improve are poor given the circumstances around why they improved.

I still think you're nit-picking.


Be upset at those two examples all you want. Teams comprised largely of younger players as their core often are in and out of the playoffs while they're growing and improving. The Winnipeg example isn't that far off, and there are several others.

Tampa has been a much more experienced example that has gone far in the playoffs, missed and then gone far in them again.

The point is there's a ton of parity in the league in this day and age and missing the playoffs one year in no way invalidates the young talent on that team.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I still think you're nit-picking.

Anyone else puzzled by the fact the most passionately defensive fanboy on this forum has a username supporting another team?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Tampa has been a much more experienced example that has gone far in the playoffs, missed and then gone far in them again.

Yeah, for the most obvious of reasons.

2014-2015 Tampa loses in Stanley Cup Finals
2015-2016 Tampa loses in Conference Finals
2016-2017 Tampa does not qualify for playoffs
2017-2018 Tampa loses in Conference Finals

2014-2015 Stamkos scores 43 goals, 72 points
2015-2016 Stamkos scores 36 goals, 64 points
2016-2017 Stamkos injured
2017-2018 Stamkos scores 27 goals, 86 points


Hmm, I wonder why they struggled in 2016-2017. Whatever the mysterious unsolvable case, obviously that must mean the Flames can improve this year...

Also, even without Stamkos...they missed the playoffs by 1 point.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Yeah, for the most obvious of reasons.

2014-2015 Tampa loses in Stanley Cup Finals
2015-2016 Tampa loses in Conference Finals
2016-2017 Tampa does not qualify for playoffs
2017-2018 Tampa loses in Conference Finals

2014-2015 Stamkos scores 43 goals, 72 points
2015-2016 Stamkos scores 36 goals, 64 points
2016-2017 Stamkos injured
2017-2018 Stamkos scores 27 goals, 86 points


Hmm, I wonder why they struggled in 2016-2017. Whatever the mysterious unsolvable case, obviously that must mean the Flames can improve this year...

Also, even without Stamkos...they missed the playoffs by 1 point.

They were one example (that I didn't bring up) and it's quite obvious they're not a direct comparable right now.

But there are teams that are.

Does the bolded above mean you don't think the Flames are poised to improve this year?

Or one further, that we don't have young talent to be excited about as dismissed on the last page?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Anyone else puzzled by the fact the most passionately defensive fanboy on this forum has a username supporting another team?

That's fantastic being called a "fan-boy" by as someone as inherently negative as yourself.

There's nothing better than the snide dismissals and negativity about something you're supposedly following for recreation.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by RoughRiderRowdy

We missed the playoffs last year and apparently our team is loaded with excellent outstanding players. I get such a laugh reading these posts

Be more specific.

Which ones are you referring to?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

That is not what was said. The poster said that BT said that Brodie was a "core piece" of the team. That would indicate he has zero intentions of trading him right?

He named pretty much everyone you could name as a core piece but hinted there could be significant change and that a player may not fit the culture.

GMs don't want to telegraph what they're going to do.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Does the bolded above mean you don't think the Flames are poised to improve this year?

Or one further, that we don't have young talent to be excited about as dismissed on the last page?

No. It means that using teams that improved by changing their on-ice personnel have no bearing on why the Flames could improve due to magic, so using Tampa and Winnipeg as examples are simply stupid. At least until such a time that the Flames bring in players who are expected to be major upgrades on what they have. And that's an issue internally who is filing the major holes? Their best prospects are defensively, and that's not the issue with the Flames. Tkachuk could/will improve, but he was already a significant contributor.

Gaudreau could improve, but why can't Taresenko or Benn?
Hamilton could improve, but why can't Klingberg or Parayko?
Jankowski could breakout, but what about Nichushkin coming back or Barbashev?

And then there's the Oilers who's top point producers and top pairing are all under 25. There's a lot of teams who think next year is their year, that's what being a fan is all about.

Weird things happen, coaches matter, Colorado surprised (especially with getting rid of Duchene) and is a good example of what people are getting at but even then Rantanen went from an 19 year old rookie to an 84 point producer, a major contributor to the big jump.

So realistically, for the Flames to improve I think it will come to external changes. If they can grab a top RW in UFA or make a trade, find some bottom 6 depth then sure, why wouldn't they improve? If they go into the season with no other changes, I don't expect much fringe-fighting for the playoffs if everything goes smoothly.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Lightning gained Stamkos, Sergachev and Gourde. Point broke out in his sophomore season. That's a huge improvement from their 2017 team, as all they lost was Drouin. Their second best defenseman and second, third and fourth point producers are huge changes to a team.

Maybe Tkachuk improves like Point and Laine did (not necessarily to Laine's level but improve by 10+ goals).

But the Flames don't have a Stamkos coming in, or a Gourde or Sergachev. Again, sort of poor comparisons to make when these teams made significant improvements in the off-season. If the Flames make similar improvements then it makes sense to compare.

Thing is outside of the Stamkos injury return it's hard to predict those other jumps.

Maybe Valimaki could be a Sergachev - they have very similar pedigrees in junior and at the WJC.

Could Tkachuk or somebody turn into an all-star like Point - it's possible. I doubt people thought Point would jump 30 points YoY.

And who knows where the hell a Gourde could come from - that guy came out of nowhere.

Maybe Jankowski takes a Gourde step.

16/17 - Jankowski - Age 21 - AHL - 56 points - .875 PPG
16/17 - Gourde - Age 24 - AHL - 48 points - .857 PPG

Or Mangiapane

17/18 - Mangiapane - Age 21 - AHL - 46 points - 1.18 PPG

The point everyone is making is that it's stupid to make a rash judgement one way or the other. Missing the playoffs this year doesn't automatically mean the Flames roster is #### and they are going to suck next year, and just because teams like Winnipeg, Colorado, and Tampa missed the playoffs last year and were good this year doesn't mean the Flames are guaranteed to bounce back next year. It can go either way.

[GoJetsGo]

The Flames core all consist of players who can and will get better as they mature.

I agree there are other teams with young talent who are in the same position, but there are also teams who will take unexpected steps back because development isn't linear. Outside of a handful of top teams, the parity in the league is greater than it's ever been.

It's why it was a weak assertion to dismiss the Flames young talent because we missed the playoffs this specific season.