Building The 2018/19 Flames Roster

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Vanek is a half step up from Chris Stewart. If he winds up on the Flames, it will be because plans A, B, and C all failed.

I agree.

Even if plans A, B, and C fail, the Flames can still get someone like Vanek.
There's no reason they should keep guys like Stajan or Glass. Not in any circumstance.

At the end of the day, the Flames need more guys who can actually get points.
Get the skill now, worry about grit later.
This would also make the team deeper in the case of injuries.

[TheScorpion]

Jfc. If Vanek is a half-step up from Stewart, then explain this:

Chris Stewart: 16 points
Thomas Vanek: 56 points

One would've ranked third on the Flames in scoring last season while making less than most every non-ELC regular forward not named Kris Versteeg. The other is Chris Stewart, who was outproduced by Brouwer.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Jfc. If Vanek is a half-step up from Stewart, then explain this:

Chris Stewart: 16 points
Thomas Vanek: 56 points

One would've ranked third on the Flames in scoring last season while making less than most every non-ELC regular forward not named Kris Versteeg. The other is Chris Stewart, who was outproduced by Brouwer.

There's a reason six teams have moved on from Vanek in the last few years. He's a floater, is streaky and putrid defensively.

It was apt in the last page when it was said if the Flames are looking to improve and have got to considering Vanek, it's as a last resort after several plans have failed.

There's a reason for that. We should be looking to ad skill and scoring without bringing in a lazy player who lacks compete. He's a declining one dimensional forward despite you referring to him as "terrific" in the past.

I get that it's June, but it's sad he's been discussed as an option for several pages. Expectations should be much higher.

[TheScorpion]

Do you see a decline?

2014-15: 52 points in 80 games
2015-16: 41 points in 74 games
2016-17: 48 points in 68 games
2017-18: 56 points in 80 games

I see no decline. The Flames' #1 priority is scoring. If they signed Thomas Vanek to contribute to the third line and the powerplay, it would do wonders for this team. Canucks fans raved about what he did with Brock Boeser as a mentor early on in the season. Jackets fans said the same about him and Boone Jenner when he was traded there. I think he'd be a fantastic mentor to Bennett.

[Nelson]

I’m very impressed by the number of people who are very familiar with all the weaknesses in Vanek’s game.

Here are my thoughts: (1) 56 points is a lot, (2) 24 goals is a lot, (3) the Flames sucked at scoring goals last season, (4) the Flames might be able to add Vanek for very cheap given his age and reputation.

If he can be had for cheap and there are not better options, sign the man!

[Strange Brew]

Last year Treliving advocated building an elite defense corps as the way to win in this league.

I wonder if he still believes that? Or I wonder if he is satisfied with how elite his defense is?

For all the (justified) complaining about the lack of scoring up front, I still feel like a huge issue last year was the defense not playing up to their expectations.

[Itse]

While I have no interest in defending Vanek specifically, I want to say I agree with Snipers general point. The Flames have in general been too interested in character and not interested enough in skill.

You can get skilled players to work hard, but you can't make hard working players more skilled.

I also believe motivation has more to do with chance of success than anything, and that you can't buy character. Bringing in FA:s to bring leadership and work ethic generally just doesn't work.

Of course you can't go full Edmonton either and completely ignore character, but in general speed and skill is what rules. Even if doesn't get you championships, skill does get you better regular seasons.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Itse

While I have no interest in defending Vanek specifically, I want to say I agree with Snipers general point. The Flames have in general been too interested in character and not interested enough in skill.

You can get skilled players to work hard, but you can't make hard working players more skilled.

I also believe motivation has more to do with chance of success than anything, and that you can't buy character. Bringing in FA:s to bring leadership and work ethic generally just doesn't work.

Of course you can't go full Edmonton either and completely ignore character, but in general speed and skill is what rules. Even if doesn't get you championships, skill does get you better regular seasons.

When you're picking less frequently than your peers you're going to be more interested in selecting 'sure things' than you will diamonds in the rough that require time or opportunity to polish.

[Bingo]

This Vanek things is approaching insane to me.

They took a swing and Versteeg and Jagr, both offensive players with character. Why go get the offensive player that moves three times a year with no character?

Hockey markets are great, but oh so tiresome

[Toonage]

I don't think the people who have their favorites realize just how often they bang that drum for their particular guy(s). It really stands out.

Once a majority of people thumb their noses at your idea, maybe its time to just give it a rest?

[Flash Walken]

Beggars can't be choosers.

The Flames aren't in any kind of position to turn down offensive skill, any offensive skill, regardless of what kind of warts that skill might bring with it.

Vanek would have a tailored spot on the roster if he signed. Beats watching Lazar whiff on passes or brouwer whiff on open nets.

[Mattman]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Beggars can't be choosers.
Vanek would have a tailored spot on the roster if he signed. Beats watching Lazar whiff on passes or brouwer whiff on open nets.

Vanek > Lazar
Vanek > Brouwer

Skill > Character

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

This Vanek things is approaching insane to me.

They took a swing and Versteeg and Jagr, both offensive players with character. Why go get the offensive player that moves three times a year with no character?

Why did the other teams sign Vanek?

This notion that Calgary is a special franchise because it values character is nonsense. Do you honestly think other franchises don't? But sometimes you have the choice between skill with character issues and no skill at all.

And Jagr is known to be high-maintenance. He may be a great guy, but he still has a big ego. And there's a reason he bounced around so much - he's pretty much been a mercenary since he came back into the NHL.

[Stanley]

Did we sign Vanek or something?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Beggars can't be choosers.

The Flames aren't in any kind of position to turn down offensive skill, any offensive skill, regardless of what kind of warts that skill might bring with it.

Vanek would have a tailored spot on the roster if he signed. Beats watching Lazar whiff on passes or brouwer whiff on open nets.

I think the Flames offensive woes are a little exaggerated by how poorly the season ended. I agree, they absolutely need more scoring next year, but I suspect that the core group of forwards is not nearly as offensively inept as they are made out to be by some.

Something to consider:

In the second week of December the Flames were in the middle-of-the-pack in terms of team scoring. At the time, Johnny Gaudreau was scoring at a 1.22 pts/gp rate, and Sean Monahan was averaging 0.94 pts/gp. It is now reported that Monahan began receiving injections in his wrist just after Christmas. From in the third week of December to the end of the season Gaudreau's production dropped a full quarter-point to 0.94 pts/gp, Monahan dropped to 0.81 pts/gp, and the Flames plummeted to 28th in the League in scoring through the final 50 games. From mid-February until the end of the season they were dead last. Through the final three weeks of the season after Monahan was shut down, Gaudreau scored one goal and one assist. It is worth considering how much Monahan's health affected the entire team.

Once again, yes, I agree that the Flames need to add some pieces to improve their scoring depth, and they need more offence overall. But by the same token, I don't believe that a player like Vanek is the answer. There is still good reason to expect much of the improvement to come from within.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Beggars can't be choosers.

The Flames aren't in any kind of position to turn down offensive skill, any offensive skill, regardless of what kind of warts that skill might bring with it.

Vanek would have a tailored spot on the roster if he signed. Beats watching Lazar whiff on passes or brouwer whiff on open nets.

Will we still be beggars on July 2nd? I fully expect, especially after the season ticket sessions held yesterday, that Treliving is going "big" on July 1st. Tavares, Neal, JVR, they'll all be pursued. I think we'll end up getting at least one big free agency signing.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Why did the other teams sign Vanek?

This notion that Calgary is a special franchise because it values character is nonsense. Do you honestly think other franchises don't? But sometimes you have the choice between skill with character issues and no skill at all.

And Jagr is known to be high-maintenance. He may be a great guy, but he still has a big ego. And there's a reason he bounced around so much - he's pretty much been a mercenary since he came back into the NHL.

You're making my point for me.

The Flames aren't unique princesses that won't bring in anything but high end two way character players.

Versteeg and Jagr are tire fires in their own zone, but they were added for offence.

To expand that to a guy that has a history of mailing it in just isn't the same thing.

Can't believe how many times I have to say this.

[TheScorpion]

Except Vanek adds a significantly higher magnitude of offence than Versteeg or Jagr were expected to without the accompanying injury history or age risk. In addition, the Flames signing Vanek and signing a guy like Neal or Perron are not two mutually exclusive things.

[Bingo]

Inconsistent players that disappear get lots of chances if they have skill, but then at some point they move to the next point in their career ... that of offensive guy for really bad teams.

Val Bure was a great example

Vanek is a current example.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think the Flames offensive woes are a little exaggerated by how poorly the season ended. I agree, they absolutely need more scoring next year, but I suspect that the core group of forwards is not nearly as offensively inept as they are made out to be by some.

Something to consider:

In the second week of December the Flames were in the middle-of-the-pack in terms of team scoring. At the time, Johnny Gaudreau was scoring at a 1.22 pts/gp rate, and Sean Monahan was averaging 0.94 pts/gp. It is now reported that Monahan began receiving injections in his wrist just after Christmas. From in the third week of December to the end of the season Gaudreau's production dropped a full quarter-point to 0.94 pts/gp, Monahan dropped to 0.81 pts/gp, and the Flames plummeted to 28th in the League in scoring through the final 50 games. From mid-February until the end of the season they were dead last. Through the final three weeks of the season after Monahan was shut down, Gaudreau scored one goal and one assist. It is worth considering how much Monahan's health affected the entire team.

Once again, yes, I agree that the Flames need to add some pieces to improve their scoring depth, and they need more offence overall. But by the same token, I don't believe that a player like Vanek is the answer. There is still good reason to expect much of the improvement to come from within.

It's a good point that the last 20 games of the season, when the PP was working at 2% and getting outscored by opponents' PKs, dragged the Flames down. And you're definitely right to point to Monahan's injurieS as being significant.

I guess I think the Flames need more forwards that can score. And I think Vanek could be part of that answer because he is still a productive player. That said, I think there are probably better options. We just need to see how expensive those other options will be in terms of salary, term and precious prospects.

If the Flames can add a RW that can score 50 points without trading any assets, why wouldn't they?