Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Nope. The Province kicked in VLT money to help True North pay down its debt. The city and the feds also kicked in money.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...ntre-1.1026604

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...h-public-funds

Manitoba also subsidizes the Jets' operations:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...ions-1.4423605

If you want to suggest that most arenas are privately built, that just isn't true. Recently, Brooklyn, Pittsburgh, NJ, Glendale, Minnie, Columbus, - in fact, the vast majority of NHL arenas were. See also Houston and Quebec, in the hopes of getting a team.

And the city Currently subsidizes the flame based on a very attractive lease which only requires donations. So the current Flames subsidy is between 5-7 million per year in tax/lease breaks plus the value of the Concert business which is not bid out to other service providers. The flames want a new building plus the continuation of those subsidies. The City position is to roughly continue those subsidies indefinitely to be dolled out in advance as required.

[Bingo]

impressed gang

Just read the last three pages of comments and the issue hasn't gone down that personal lane that we saw far too often last year

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Bingo

impressed gang

Just read the last three pages of comments and the issue hasn't gone down that personal lane that we saw far too often last year

Hopefully a good sign that perhaps this forum and the rest of the city is ready to have a meaningful discussion on this, rather than an emotionally charged negotiation.

It has been a joy reading the past few pages and hopefully we start hearing some progress and potential features of the proposed facility. Even some high level discussion around stadium features and public use features would be helpful in calming some unrest.

[RM14]

Should hear something from the Flames management today at the season ticket holder meetings. Either a "No comment" or some kinda hint.

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

If the basis if your argument is for the Flames' owners to suddenly behave much differently than they have to this point in the process or much differently than most other very wealthy people behave, then I think you are being unrealistic.

From the POV of the Flames owners, they want the same deal others have received in very similar situations (e.g. Edmonton). Thus the stalemate.

But I don't think how wealthy they are already has any real relevance to the conversation.

Exactly!

We are each welcome to carry our own opinion. The high percentage of people against the Flames ownership are viewing it from their own point of view as a tax payer. To bring forth a valid argument, you need to see it from the flames ownerships point of view as well.

Your friends were all buying RV's at different Woodys RV stores across Canada and the US and everyone was able to negotiate their own favorable deal with the store. You walk into the Calgary location and they tell you that the price on the sticker is the price you are paying and if you don't like it, leave. You could buy one from another city but it isn't convenient, warranty needs to be out of that same location and you will pay some dealer fees.

What would you do? I most likely go home and ponder for a while hoping the Calgary store calls me willing to negotiate. If not, I still have my old RV which is about to breakdown but I will run it into the ground before I cave to paying more than any of my friends did.

This may be an awful example but it's how I look at it trying to put something that would compare the average persons househole income to a luxury and billionaires income to a luxury of their own.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

Your friends were all buying RV's at different Woodys RV stores across Canada and the US and everyone was able to negotiate their own favorable deal with the store.

Except your friends aren't all getting their own favorable deal. Your friend in Las Vegas, your friend in Long Island, your friend in Seattle... they all just payed full market rate clearly the market has changed. Why should this Woody's look at those other Woody's and take less then their margin? You dithered and procrastinated while Woody's was having a sale event and missed out.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Except your friends aren't all getting their own favorable deal. Your friend in Las Vegas, your friend in Long Island, your friend in Seattle... they all just payed full market rate clearly the market has changed. Why should this Woody's look at those other Woody's and take less then their margin? You dithered and procrastinated while Woody's was having a sale event and missed out.

Not only was the woodys having a sale, but were eagerly throwing surplus cash at customers coming in. When they reached out to you, you kept telling them you were coming in for the deal tomorrow with cash in hand. Eventually the salesman got tired of calling in and you came in several months later noe wanting the same deal.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Except your friends aren't all getting their own favorable deal. Your friend in Las Vegas, your friend in Long Island, your friend in Seattle... they all just payed full market rate clearly the market has changed. Why should this Woody's look at those other Woody's and take less then their margin? You dithered and procrastinated while Woody's was having a sale event and missed out.

Vegas is obviously a different animal because of the amount of the year it will be used. So, in fact is Barclays. And, in addition, the latter involves owenrship of all the adjoining entertainment centre as a development. That's a whole different proposal. Also, meanwhile:

https://www.newsday.com/long-island/...eum-1.17736054

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Not only was the woodys having a sale, but were eagerly throwing surplus cash at customers coming in. When they reached out to you, you kept telling them you were coming in for the deal tomorrow with cash in hand. Eventually the salesman got tired of calling in and you came in several months later noe wanting the same deal.

Except the salesman just called back and said "let's talk". Not the RV owner.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Vegas is obviously a different animal because ...

So what you're saying that each Woody's is different and what works in one Woody's doesn't automatically work for another Woody's?

I completely agree. That's why someone shouldn't expect that the Calgary Woody's will give the same deal to you that the Edmonton Woody's gave to some other guy.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Parallex

So what you're saying that each Woody's is different and what works in one Woody's doesn't automatically work for another Woody's?

I completely agree. That's why someone shouldn't expect that the Calgary Woody's will give the same deal to you that the Edmonton Woody's gave to some other guy.

I don't think anyone is actually making that argument. In fact, I don't even think CSEG is. But certainly if I hear of a deal at another dealership for the same car, I will mention it when I negotiate.

[Travis Munroe]

It was a very simple example to give some idea as to what it would be like if the average joe was negotiating. I understand that there would have be countless other factors not accounted for in my example. I actually had a good laugh reading the replies.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

It was a very simple example to give some idea as to what it would be like if the average joe was negotiating. I understand that there would have be countless other factors not accounted for in my example. I actually had a good laugh reading the replies.

Yeah many missed your point.

It's a pretty normal opening from an ownership group to want a deal that is similar to a deal done recently in your own province.

Did they expect to get exactly that? Maybe, maybe not. But it's a normal way of opening the conversation.

To be honest the two deals aren't that far apart, there is a deal to be done.

The egos needed to be cleared, and it looks like the city has gotten their problem out of the way. If I was the Flames I'd do the same with King and see where it goes.

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah many missed your point.

It's a pretty normal opening from an ownership group to want a deal that is similar to a deal done recently in your own province.

Did they expect to get exactly that? Maybe, maybe not. But it's a normal way of opening the conversation.

To be honest the two deals aren't that far apart, there is a deal to be done.

The egos needed to be cleared, and it looks like the city has gotten their problem out of the way. If I was the Flames I'd do the same with King and see where it goes.

Couldn't agree more that they are much closer than it would appear through the media. If King were to step aside for discussions in the project, who would step in? I assume the owners themselves try to stay fairly hands off and prefer to pay someone to handle it. Is there a different role/individual who would make sense to step in?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

Couldn't agree more that they are much closer than it would appear through the media. If King were to step aside for discussions in the project, who would step in? I assume the owners themselves try to stay fairly hands off and prefer to pay someone to handle it. Is there a different role/individual who would make sense to step in?

I wouldn't be surprised if they either went with an owner who isn't Edwards or hired a complete outsider as an agent. Someone who has lobbied the city before. I've heard some rumours that King won't be front and centre this time.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

If King were to step aside for discussions in the project, who would step in?

A new President & CEO.

Which really should happen, I think Ken King should retire and spend more time with his family. I mean Brad Treliving got a "Ken King doesn't get to meddle in what I do" clause to his contract, when they hired Burke word was it was so that Ken King could have more time to spend on the arena project (which he's clearly bungled), heck... given his "whoa is us!" dog and pony show he can't even claim really positive financial results. So he's pretty clearly not doing his job particularly well lately. He's 66 years old... that's clearly a respectable age to retire at.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Parallex

heck... given his "whoa is us!" dog and pony show he can't even claim really positive financial results.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Parallex

A new President & CEO.

Which really should happen, I think Ken King should retire and spend more time with his family. I mean Brad Treliving got a "Ken King doesn't get to meddle in what I do" clause to his contract, when they hired Burke word was it was so that Ken King could have more time to spend on the arena project (which he's clearly bungled), heck... given his "whoa is us!" dog and pony show he can't even claim really positive financial results. So he's pretty clearly not doing his job particularly well lately. He's 66 years old... that's clearly a respectable age to retire at.

Man telling someone they should retire and spend more time with his family is making things awfully personal.
The willingness of people to simply assess who should be able to keep their job and who shouldn't astounds me sometimes, particularly when it is based on a very incomplete view of what they do and how they've been performing.

[Flash Walken]

Ken King has done a remarkable job for Flames ownership in his role.

That may be at odds with what Fans want, but they have divergent interests from what ownership wants, and so far King has delivered for Ownership.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Ken King has done a remarkable job for Flames ownership in his role.

That may be at odds with what Fans want, but they have divergent interests from what ownership wants, and so far King has delivered for Ownership.

By what metric has he been "remarkable"?

Their revenues have apparently lagged behind the league even with the Canadian ticket price premium. They haven't had any success on the ice. The in house product has been pretty stale for years now.

I'll give you adequate. Remarkable is out of the question.