Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Strange Brew]

I agree with Bingo that there is no "smoking gun" here, if you are looking for a hidden pile of money that changes the economics for a tenant of a new arena.

But does anyone honestly believe the Hitmen do not turn a profit?

Average over 8,000 fans a game for 36 home games, leading the league.
A very favorable lease arrangement
No player salaries
Minimal travel costs compared to a pro team
Ability to share back-office costs with the Flames

CSEC is a private company and how they want to keep their books is their business. But part of their sales pitch for public money is how they are unable to be viable without public assistance in form of a new arena. The amount of financial info we see from them is rare. And so when you do see something that is so obviously implausible, it can't help but leave a sour taste in my mouth and question the legitimacy of other claims being made.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Hockey Fan #751

Yes, he'll win. Down in polls but he's still projecting a majority for seats. Might not win the popular vote but he'll win the election (sounds familiar...).

No, he actually won't.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I agree with Bingo that there is no "smoking gun" here, if you are looking for a hidden pile of money that changes the economics for a tenant of a new arena.

But does anyone honestly believe the Hitmen do not turn a profit?

Average over 8,000 fans a game for 36 home games, leading the league.
A very favorable lease arrangement
No player salaries
Minimal travel costs compared to a pro team
Ability to share back-office costs with the Flames

CSEC is a private company and how they want to keep their books is their business. But part of their sales pitch for public money is how they are unable to be viable without public assistance in form of a new arena. The amount of financial info we see from them is rare. And so when you do see something that is so obviously implausible, it can't help but leave a sour taste in my mouth and question the legitimacy of other claims being made.

Agreed

To me it comes down to NHL revenue sharing.

If they are receiving now that's pretty telling.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Agreed

To me it comes down to NHL revenue sharing.

If they are receiving now that's pretty telling.

The most telling thing to me is the Flames refusing to open their books to the city.
As for revenue sharing, isn't it only the top 10 teams that share revenue with the bottom 21? so it's not really very telling at all.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

As for revenue sharing, isn't it only the top 10 teams that share revenue with the bottom 21? so it's not really very telling at all.

Top 10 share with the bottom 15. The 5 (and now 6, I assume) in the middle neither contribute nor receive anything to/from revenue sharing.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by getbak

Top 10 share with the bottom 15. The 5 (and now 6, I assume) in the middle neither contribute nor receive anything to/from revenue sharing.

I appreciate the clarification. it still doesn't tell us very much though does it?

[getbak]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

I appreciate the clarification. it still doesn't tell us very much though does it?

Nope.

[Hangman]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I agree with Bingo that there is no "smoking gun" here, if you are looking for a hidden pile of money that changes the economics for a tenant of a new arena.

But does anyone honestly believe the Hitmen do not turn a profit?

Average over 8,000 fans a game for 36 home games, leading the league.
A very favorable lease arrangement
No player salaries
Minimal travel costs compared to a pro team
Ability to share back-office costs with the Flames

CSEC is a private company and how they want to keep their books is their business. But part of their sales pitch for public money is how they are unable to be viable without public assistance in form of a new arena. The amount of financial info we see from them is rare. And so when you do see something that is so obviously implausible, it can't help but leave a sour taste in my mouth and question the legitimacy of other claims being made.

You have keep in mind that the 8,000 figure is an inflated number. I believe that all Flames season ticket holders in the luxury seats are given tickets for the Hitmen. And even if they don't show up for any games those tickets are counted as bums in seats for attendance purposes.

A likely explanation for the overall loss

[Freeway]

Bingo basically nailed the rationale, to be honest: Hitmen and Roughnecks likely collectively don't turn a profit (nor do they likely cost a heck of a lot to run), so they're functionally lumped in with the "non-Flames events" mentioned in my intro.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Hangman

You have keep in mind that the 8,000 figure is an inflated number. I believe that all Flames season ticket holders in the luxury seats are given tickets for the Hitmen. And even if they don't show up for any games those tickets are counted as bums in seats for attendance purposes.

A likely explanation for the overall loss

The attendance might be inflated, as attendance figures often are, but no way do I believe the Hitmen legitimately are in the red. Probably off topic for this thread as I don’t think it has a material impact on anything to do with the arena.

But many many hockey and basketball leagues would be happy with about 8,000 fans a game and that is for teams that have to pay their players and don’t share a back office.

And are you certain that is how they count attendance for the luxury boxes?

[Reneeee]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

The attendance might be inflated, as attendance figures often are, but no way do I believe the Hitmen legitimately are in the red. Probably off topic for this thread as I don’t think it has a material impact on anything to do with the arena.

But many many hockey and basketball leagues would be happy with about 8,000 fans a game and that is for teams that have to pay their players and don’t share a back office.

And are you certain that is how they count attendance for the luxury boxes?

I don't know how somebody can look at the economics of it and think the hitmen are in the black. I'd expect to hear the stamps are in the red too. You're in an old barn and nobody wants to come watch. Hell I haven't been to a hitmen or stamps game in atleast a decade now. Just no desire to watch in the stadiums. More to CalgaryNext or Vic Park and I go watch a few hitmen games.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

I don't know how somebody can look at the economics of it and think the hitmen are in the black.

Because they have high attendance (for the Dub), low individual overhead, and multiple shared costs.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

I don't know how somebody can look at the economics of it and think the hitmen are in the black. I'd expect to hear the stamps are in the red too. You're in an old barn and nobody wants to come watch.

Just because you don't want to watch, doesn't mean nobody wants to. As mentioned earlier, Hitmen have the best attendance in the league. And probably one of newest and nicest arenas in the league. A lot of the considerations for why the Flames might need a new arena go away at a Hitmen game; due to the fact that they are at 40% of capacity. There's no lineups for food or washrooms, and there is plenty of space in the concourse.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Agreed

To me it comes down to NHL revenue sharing.

If they are receiving now that's pretty telling.

I assume this mostly has to do with a weak Canadian dollar.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Just because you don't want to watch, doesn't mean nobody wants to. As mentioned earlier, Hitmen have the best attendance in the league. And probably one of newest and nicest arenas in the league. A lot of the considerations for why the Flames might need a new arena go away at a Hitmen game; due to the fact that they are at 40% of capacity. There's no lineups for food or washrooms, and there is plenty of space in the concourse.

What do you base this on?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

I don't know how somebody can look at the economics of it and think the hitmen are in the black. I'd expect to hear the stamps are in the red too. You're in an old barn and nobody wants to come watch. Hell I haven't been to a hitmen or stamps game in atleast a decade now. Just no desire to watch in the stadiums. More to CalgaryNext or Vic Park and I go watch a few hitmen games.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

You’re probably not that into junior hockey if you need a new NHL caliber arena in order to go to a game.

[LanceUppercut]

The hitmen could easily have paid a million dollar management fee to the CSEC to cause the loss. Without seeing all the books no one can know for sure.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

I appreciate the clarification. it still doesn't tell us very much though does it?

Well first off all you are fully able to decide what's telling for yourself.

For me the Flames have gone from a top 6 revenue team that pays every year to a team that is paid by their peers to be a bottom half team.

Hard to question books when their peers are cutting cheques, and dropping into the bottom 15 given their attendance and the market they play in suggests there could be a problem.

Is the problem the building? Clearly the exchange rate is a bunch of it, but an old building with the exchange rate seems to have moved them from elite market to "average" or just below.

That's telling to me.

[memphusk]

I think the building is fine, but I go to watch the game, not for the experience. Problem with the team being cut cheques by their peers isn't due to age of building. It's due to the ####ty product being put on the ice.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by memphusk

I think the building is fine, but I go to watch the game, not for the experience. Problem with the team being cut cheques by their peers isn't due to age of building. It's due to the ####ty product being put on the ice.

The Flames play to 98% capacity.

So no