[News] Marek - recent 1st round pick unlikely to play in NHL due to video game addiction

[FlamesFanTrev]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is interesting to me because it suggests that you have attached some intrinsic value to the word (or concept) of an "athlete." By doing so you are also, possibly inadvertently, devaluing other leisure activities or forms of entertainment for not conforming to an ideal you have about "athletes."


I think this also feeds into your own value-perception of what constitutes "sports," which does not necessarily equitably reflect the entire gamut. I am an older guy, and as such there are social dynamics which are really important and meaningful to my kids that drive me crazy. By the same token, there are other dynamics and truisms which I value, but which my kids find to be irrelevant. Whether we like it or not, our world is changing. Our means and methods of "social education" and interaction are changing dramatically. It is neither becoming something better or worse, it's just the way our world works.


What if your kids have no desire to play any sports? What if they don't wish to be enrolled? What if they would prefer to spend all that time playing video games within their huge social networks?

My kids will be enrolled in sports, because I want them to at least to have experienced that dynamic. If they choose to continue with it, that's up to them. I never asked to be signed up for little league baseball, but 7 of the 8 years I played were entirely by my own choice. The bigger the base, the taller the tower. It is my responsibility as a parent to provide that base.

[FlamesFanTrev]

Originally Posted by Split98

And if I showed those same people a controller I would be met with blank stares?

No but I think you would be frustrated by the low percentage of people that called it sporting equipment.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Igottago

So basically you are celebrating someone's mouse and keyboard skills because nothing is occurring in real physical space. No ships are being landed and no shots are actually taking place. Basically its a mouse control competition. You are saying that mouse control competitions are as compelling as physical sport. That's your opinion but let's be real about what is actually taking place vs what is going on in the NHL or any major sports league.

Why is "real physical space" such an important factor in how compelling a game is? If I go to a soccer field and juggle a ball by myself, is that compelling because it's "actually taking place".

And if you want to apply that kind of reductionist description, sports are also meaningless. Hockey is just some guys using sticks to slide a piece of rubber around some ice.

[icecube]

Lol at the people calling video games a sport

[Split98]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev

No but I think you would be frustrated by the low percentage of people that called it sporting equipment.

You know you just invalidated your earlier point, and made a baseless second point - right?

[Pellanor]

Originally Posted by icecube

Lol at the people calling video games a sport

If you're going to make fun of them, at least use a real pic.

[bax]

Originally Posted by icecube

Lol at the people calling video games a sport

I think the people that have pulled in over a million dollars playing these games consider them a sport.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Igottago

So basically you are celebrating someone's mouse and keyboard skills because nothing is occurring in real physical space. No ships are being landed and no shots are actually taking place. Basically its a mouse control competition. You are saying that mouse control competitions are as compelling as physical sport. That's your opinion but let's be real about what is actually taking place vs what is going on in the NHL or any major sports league.

If we boil down everyone's abilities to the root of the skills on display we can make everything look silly. I hope you can agree that there's a guy out there with Devil Sticks that would blow your mind. To someone who doesn't know any sports at I wouldn't be that surprised if they find Devil Stick dude more impressive than Crosby. It's all relative really.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Igottago

You will never hear about an esports players parents having to drive him to the rink at 5 in the morning through blizzards, having the discipline to maintain a healthy diet and training routine for years, dealing with physical pain and injury in the same way..

https://dotesports.com/league-of-leg...e-koreans-5759

In latter years, some teams did get better apartments and provide proper beds for their star players, but even great players had to work their way up through the team, sleeping in bunk beds, often 4 bunk beds to a room, with their team-mates.
...
In KeSPA houses, it used to be said that the contracts the players signed demanded they commit to 12 hour days of practice. That's not where practice ends, though. .

You can find very similar stories all over eSports. Players who leave their family to move to Seoul at 14 or 15. Living in small confined spaces, practicing 12-14 hours a day.

Look up Boxer's Wing if you want a story about an injured veteran trying to push through the pain and regain his fame.

[FlamesFanTrev]

Originally Posted by Split98

You know you just invalidated your earlier point, and made a baseless second point - right?

And you have yet to make your own point.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev

And you have yet to make your own point.

Are you having trouble keeping up with this thread?

You responded to this, my point:

Originally Posted by Split98

sport

spôrt/
noun
1. an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.

I mean... it technically is a sport, just not the amount of physical exertion we associate with it.

I would go as far to say that a lot of E-Sports demonstrate a lot more skill and competition than Golf.

EDIT: And this is what I owe you a response to to validate my point?

Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev

No but I think you would be frustrated by the low percentage of people that called it sporting equipment.

Fine.

No, I won't be.

[FlamesFanTrev]

Originally Posted by Split98

Are you having trouble keeping up with this thread?

You responded to this, my point:

As you pointed out, I responded to that hours ago. Since then, your contribution to the discussion has been to quote and requote my points, without supplying or contributing anything really new to the discussion. Bravo.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

How many "rags to riches" stories are there still in modern, traditional sports? I would warrant an infinitesimal few because modern professional sports is becoming more and more elitist. With the current climate that requires endless added specializations, numerous coaches, expensive camps and tournaments in order to be successful professional sports is becoming increasingly more unachievable to those without means.

My 14-year-old is a pretty good soccer player, and he has set his sights on a university scholarship or even the possibility of a professional career. We are under constant pressure to pay for private training sessions, camps, coaches, etc.—much of which we are simply unable to afford. I am painfully aware of the very real possibility that my and my wife's own shortage of disposable income could very well stand between my son and his dream.

Agreed. Children's sports looks today look radically different than they did 30 years ago. The early start, specialization, and, especially, the skyrocketing cost has transformed sport utterly. Competitive sports today are almost exclusively the domain of the wealthiest 10 or 20 per cent. The notion of 9 and 13 year olds touring to different provinces, states, or countries, incurring many thousands of dollars a year on families in flights and hotels, would have struck parents in the 70s or 80s as absolutely bonkers. Now it's routine.

In that sense, e-sports are an egalitarian alternative to traditional sports. If you're a single mom working at Petland, your son has a heck of a lot better chance of becoming a pro Counterstrike player than he has of competing in skiing, hockey, or baseball at a high level.

What's Lost When Only Rich Kids Play Sports

https://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...sports/541317/

How Kids’ Sports Became a $15 Billion Industry

http://time.com/magazine/us/4913681/...-190-no-9-u-s/

[Split98]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev

As you pointed out, I responded to that hours ago. Since then, you contribution to the discussion has to quote and requote my points, without supplying or contributing anything really new to the discussion. Bravo.

Took me a few seconds to parse through this post... but I think I got it. You think that I haven't made a good point because I haven't supplied anything new? That's not how conversations work.

I said a thing, you refuted it, I refuted that and you made a list you're hot and bothered no one list-matched you on.

Let me address all the points you've brought up to make sure I've given you new content to chew on. A great use of my time, as you've been such a great person to talk to



1. "[...]The fact that for gaming you have to give at qualifier when trying to describe it (the "e" in e-sport) essentially separates it from comparison to other activities catagorized as sports.[...]"
I gave you the example of 'Extreme Sports' to demonstrate to you that adding 'e' isn't a good validation for this not being a sport. You then started listing sports as a response to that... which does nothing to further your assertion that 'e' makes it not a sport. If anything, you encouraged my POV by adding sports to the list...

2. "[...]it was estimated that approximately 71.5 million people worldwide watched eSports.[...]"
I gave you an example of how this is a silly way to prove your point.

3. "If there is no other sports that can apply to that category, why is there a category? More aptly, if it can't be compared to other sports, is it a sport?"
Sometimes you don't respond to things because the assertion they made was best left ignored. If you want your list so badly, a breakdown of eSports is here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESports
But founding your believe on the fact that there aren't sub-categories to your liking is asinine. I am at a loss for how you come to those conclusions.

4. "That's like saying halfpipe, slope style, and down hill (racing) are different sports you can do on a snowboard. They are different snowboarding events, but the sport is called snowboarding."
I can't imagine you're too proud of this point, but I'm making sure I'm covering all of them! Slopestyle is a sport. If you ask a snowboarder what they do... they could respond with downhill racer, or snowboarder. It's really their choice. Some people care about subcategories, some don't. But if you watch the Olympics, they don't announce every snowboarder, skier, swimmer etc by the overall sport they're playing - they will be participating in moguls. Their classification is really only relevant to the context it's being discussed. Someone might say that they're great at PVP... or they might tell you they're into eSports. It's a very strange platform to base your opinion on.

5. "I don't know, I guess it seems to me that the idea of sports is athletic in nature, and e-sports is actually the antithesis of that."
You're just being obtuse if you don't think that the other side of that opinion hasn't already been expressed.

6. "Good on em. But this concept of calling a video game a sport, and the people that play them an "athlete" cheapens the term, at least to me."
This I also responded to. I even posted a picture for you.

7. "I guess what I dislike most that it's possible to be a part of a team that never actually meets or competes in person and misses out on the social education that I experienced on actual sports teams."
This is your narrow definition of a sport. I asked you a question you never responded to if we're playing that game: By your definitions, what category should I put a privileged tennis player who rode in a Mercedes to every tournament and never made a single friend?

8. "Actually, my point was just because 1% of the population calls something something doesn't make it so."
This was a silly dismissal of your point being shot down. Correlating viewership vs. world population to sport classification is silly.

9. "I am the furthest thing from a victim there is, in this matter and any other."
I quoted you playing the victim

10. "Actually, I bet if you showed people that dont like hockey a stick and a puck, they would be able to identify the sport of hockey."
I responded, and you agreed

11. "No but I think you would be frustrated by the low percentage of people that called it sporting equipment."
Here you are agreeing with me, and making another statement that you can't followup on - but expect me to counter with my opinion? I won't be frustrated in the slightest, and you have no clue what a person we just made up is going to think about something they don't have much of a connection with.

12. "And you have yet to make your own point."
I made several.



And that brings us to now.

I think eSports is a sport. I've shown multiple times why. It's strange that you think I need to evolve my opinion for you to see it.

[FlamesFanTrev]

Originally Posted by Split98

Took me a few seconds to parse through this post... but I think I got it. You think that I haven't made a good point because I haven't supplied anything new? That's not how conversations work.

I said a thing, you refuted it, I refuted that and you made a list you're hot and bothered no one list-matched you on.

Let me address all the points you've brought up to make sure I've given you new content to chew on. A great use of my time, as you've been such a great person to talk to



1. "[...]The fact that for gaming you have to give at qualifier when trying to describe it (the "e" in e-sport) essentially separates it from comparison to other activities catagorized as sports.[...]"
I gave you the example of 'Extreme Sports' to demonstrate to you that adding 'e' isn't a good validation for this not being a sport. You then started listing sports as a response to that... which does nothing to further your assertion that 'e' makes it not a sport. If anything, you encouraged my POV by adding sports to the list...

2. "[...]it was estimated that approximately 71.5 million people worldwide watched eSports.[...]"
I gave you an example of how this is a silly way to prove your point.

3. "If there is no other sports that can apply to that category, why is there a category? More aptly, if it can't be compared to other sports, is it a sport?"
Sometimes you don't respond to things because the assertion they made was best left ignored. If you want your list so badly, a breakdown of eSports is here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESports
But founding your believe on the fact that there aren't sub-categories to your liking is asinine. I am at a loss for how you come to those conclusions.

4. "That's like saying halfpipe, slope style, and down hill (racing) are different sports you can do on a snowboard. They are different snowboarding events, but the sport is called snowboarding."
I can't imagine you're too proud of this point, but I'm making sure I'm covering all of them! Slopestyle is a sport. If you ask a snowboarder what they do... they could respond with downhill racer, or snowboarder. It's really their choice. Some people care about subcategories, some don't. But if you watch the Olympics, they don't announce every snowboarder, skier, swimmer etc by the overall sport they're playing - they will be participating in moguls. Their classification is really only relevant to the context it's being discussed. Someone might say that they're great at PVP... or they might tell you they're into eSports. It's a very strange platform to base your opinion on.

5. "I don't know, I guess it seems to me that the idea of sports is athletic in nature, and e-sports is actually the antithesis of that."
You're just being obtuse if you don't think that the other side of that opinion hasn't already been expressed.

6. "Good on em. But this concept of calling a video game a sport, and the people that play them an "athlete" cheapens the term, at least to me."
This I also responded to. I even posted a picture for you.

7. "I guess what I dislike most that it's possible to be a part of a team that never actually meets or competes in person and misses out on the social education that I experienced on actual sports teams."
This is your narrow definition of a sport. I asked you a question you never responded to if we're playing that game: By your definitions, what category should I put a privileged tennis player who rode in a Mercedes to every tournament and never made a single friend?

8. "Actually, my point was just because 1% of the population calls something something doesn't make it so."
This was a silly dismissal of your point being shot down. Correlating viewership vs. world population to sport classification is silly.

9. "I am the furthest thing from a victim there is, in this matter and any other."
I quoted you playing the victim

10. "Actually, I bet if you showed people that dont like hockey a stick and a puck, they would be able to identify the sport of hockey."
I responded, and you agreed

11. "No but I think you would be frustrated by the low percentage of people that called it sporting equipment."
Here you are agreeing with me, and making another statement that you can't followup on - but expect me to counter with my opinion? I won't be frustrated in the slightest, and you have no clue what a person we just made up is going to think about something they don't have much of a connection with.

12. "And you have yet to make your own point."
I made several.



And that brings us to now.

I think eSports is a sport. I've shown multiple times why. It's strange that you think I need to evolve my opinion for you to see it.

Beautifully summed up, if more then somewhat slanted. You really are great at quoting and requoting.

In response to your newest post:

I disagree, I don't think e-sports is a sport.

[Pellanor]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev

I guess what I dislike most that it's possible to be a part of a team that never actually meets or competes in person and misses out on the social education that I experienced on actual sports teams.

I think one of the big issues here is that eSports is so new. We don't have the infrastructure to enroll kids on teams with coaches that will teach them teamwork and sportsmanship. The kids have to find their own team mates. Some of those will be friends they go to school with, and some will be people that they meet online.


If you feel that the social aspect is the most important aspect of sports, then as part of the current generation raising the next, it's your responsibility to make sure that children have access to it. Don't wait for the school to send out enrollment forms. If you're kids are into competitive gaming, then go talk to the school about setting up a team. Take the time to learn the game so that you can help coach, just like so many parents did for our generation. We have it a bit harder, there weren't esports when we were raised, so we don't have any knowledge to fall back on. But we still know about teamwork, and practice, and sportsmanship, and what it means to compete.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Agreed. Children's sports looks today look radically different than they did 30 years ago. The early start, specialization, and, especially, the skyrocketing cost has transformed sport utterly. Competitive sports today are almost exclusively the domain of the wealthiest 10 or 20 per cent. The notion of 9 and 13 year olds touring to different provinces, states, or countries, incurring many thousands of dollars a year on families in flights and hotels, would have struck parents in the 70s or 80s as absolutely bonkers. Now it's routine.

There's a big difference between putting kids into sports to stay in shape and have fun versus trying to turn them professional.

Hockey is more expensive relative to a lot of other sports, however, putting kids into house league hockey isn't a reach for most middle class families.

Prices for elite travel hockey teams, specialized shooting, skating and other forms of extra curricular coaching that are are designed to guide kids to the WHL and NCAA are rightfully so expensive. Does every kid need to be put into these programs? Absolutely not. I personally don't believe it's the parents responsibility to try to turn their kids pro, especially if they don't have the means to do it.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev

Beautifully summed up, if more then somewhat slanted. You really are great at quoting and requoting.

In response to your newest post:

I disagree, I don't think e-sports is a sport.

It's odd you took such offence to being called a dick, and yet respond with this. I don't know why I thought turning a page with you would result in anything engaging. You 'called me to task' over my "[...]contribution to the discussion [being] to quote and requote [your] points, without supplying or contributing anything really new to the discussion" to which I responded but you seem very reluctant again to respond in any meaningful way. Again, it's a very odd way to form a discussion.

The slant you're reading is my opinion that you called me out for not providing to you enough of. The other half are things you wrote. Slant is an odd characterization of someone's opinion.

Considering you're so hard pressed to get answers, answer mine. If you want to be that guy, I really want you to dive deeper on all 12 points. If you're going to criticize others efforts towards your opinion, you should be ready to respond in kind.

[CF84]

I'm a gamer (rpgs) and I have watched some "ESports" like Starcraft, but I would never ever think of it as a sport even if it is team based. I also golf and there is much more physical activity in that then in a game.

Saying a video game is a sport seems a lot like calling a team based game show like Chain Reaction a sport...or a chess team.

Even if it became and Olympic sport I would just laugh at the thought that people think it's a sport and then watch it to see what happens

Gaming is not a sport, but it can be a competition that earns you money.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Alright already.