Building The 2018/19 Flames Roster

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Not trying to pick on you, but those lineups are like Buzz's girlfriend; WOOF! They aren't woof because I think you're bad at putting lineups together, they are woof because it's tough to turn chicken #### into chicken salad. Valiant effort, but still a black and white mess.

Really illustrates how many forward positions are needing to be filled by quality NHLers.

Haha. They only need to fill 3 top 9 forward spots in my estimation. That's not as bad as you make it out to be IMO.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Backlund, Frolik and Ferland are all fine where I've put them. None of them are over there heads are they?

Gaudreau, Monahan - legit 1st liners
Tkachuk - legit 2nd liner with room to grow
Ferland, Backlund, Frolik - not one of those guys are in over there heads as 3rd liners are they?

That leaves three spots to fill. Not that bad.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Haha. They only need to fill 3 top 9 forward spots in my estimation. That's not as bad as you make it out to be IMO.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Backlund, Frolik and Ferland are all fine where I've put them. None of them are over there heads are they?

Gaudreau, Monahan - legit 1st liners
Tkachuk - legit 2nd liner with room to grow
Ferland, Backlund, Frolik - not one of those guys are in over there heads as 3rd liners are they?

That leaves three spots to fill. Not that bad.

I would say:

Gaudreau / Tkachuk - legit stars - guys who drive first lines and PPs

Monahan - legit 1st liner, maybe a bit less on a contender

Ferland / Backlund - legit 2nd liners

Bennett - ES 2nd liner who hasn't produced on the power play or actually played with 2nd liners at ES. You can call him a 3rd liner for argument's sake but there is no question he is top 9 on any team in the league.

Jankowski / Frolik - legit 3rd liners, in Jankowski's case with serious upside too. Frolik's the worst of these eight players and he is top 9 on any team in the league

We really only have one "hole" on the top 9 though it's a major one because the above eight players all shoot left. Ideally you're also deep enough to push Frolik down to the fourth line but that's not a hole so much as something you might consider at the trade deadline if your team is firmly where it needs to be. Likewise ideally you have Versteeg or Gagner on your fourth line as a PP specialist to balance out the handedness, and Shore (or Derek Ryan, if Peters loves him so much).

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-Bennett-X
X-Backlund-Jankowski
Frolik-Shore-Versteeg or Frolik-Ryan-Foo

Personally I would BE THROWING MONEY AT Kovalchuk right now and let Mangiapane start the season in our top 9. Try and squeeze Foo in too, maybe in Versteeg's spot given Versteeg's injury problems. Shop Frolik for some cap relief while we wait for Brouwer to disappear. Shop Lazar. Let Hathaway/Stajan walk. See if speedy guys like Kapanen, Byron, Grabner, Hagelin, Cogliano could be had in any Stone swap.

[TheKurgan]

Barring some miracle in free agency I think the flames need to trade one of Hamilton/Brodie+ to add some real skill in the top 6. So here at two possible trades that I think would make us better for next year.

To Calgary: Ryan O’Reilly
To Buffalo: Dougie Hamilton

Gaudreau - Monahan - Ferland
Tkachuk – Ryan O’Reilly - Bennett
Frolik - Backlund - Foo
Lazar - Jankowski – Shore

Or if you trade Brodie+ we might be able to land a decent 2nd line RWer

To Calgary: Nylander or Simmonds
To Toronto/Philly: Brodie+ Prospects if needed

Gaudreau - Monahan – Nylander/Simmonds
Tkachuk – Backlund - Bennett
Frolik - Jankowski - Ferland
Lazar - Shore – Foo

Buyout Brouwer and maybe trade Stone/Frolik for 2nd/3rd round picks if you think some kids are good enough to make the jump.

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by TheKurgan

Barring some miracle in free agency I think the flames need to trade one of Hamilton/Brodie+ to add some real skill in the top 6. So here at two possible trades that I think would make us better for next year.

To Calgary: Ryan O’Reilly
To Buffalo: Dougie Hamilton

Gaudreau - Monahan - Ferland
Tkachuk – Ryan O’Reilly - Bennett
Frolik - Backlund - Foo
Lazar - Jankowski – Shore

Or if you trade Brodie+ we might be able to land a decent 2nd line RWer

To Calgary: Nylander or Simmonds
To Toronto/Philly: Brodie+ Prospects if needed

Gaudreau - Monahan – Nylander/Simmonds
Tkachuk – Backlund - Bennett
Frolik - Jankowski - Ferland
Lazar - Shore – Foo

Buyout Brouwer and maybe trade Stone/Frolik for 2nd/3rd round picks if you think some kids are good enough to make the jump.

I don't think that is a great trade for us. If we're going to trade arguably our best offensive Dman then we better be getting a scoring RW which we need more than another second line centre.

[Vinny01]

I think it is more believable to trade Dougie for Nylander and Brodie+ for RoR.

I can’t see the Leafs trading Nylander for a 28 year old Dman coming off 2 questionable years.

I also think Dougie would command more than RoR in a trade. A 50pt top pairing Dman making 5.75 has more value than a 60pt 2nd line centre making 7.5. Perhaps the Sabres eat salary to even it out?

[Vinny01]

I am concerned about trading players with multiple years left for guys that are in the last year of their deals. For that reason I am not interested in the Flames pursuing a trade for Simmonds or Pacioretty. Both guys will need new long term deals kicking in for their 31-32 age season.

The Habs and Flyers will be wise to ship these players out for younger assets this summer and let another team lock them up for too long and too much

I would be okay if they went after Skinner since he is only 25 and could have years left in his prime so an extension wouldn’t be as bad

[Mattman]

As much as having Simmonds on the 1st would be an improvement, I don't think it's the solution.

If you're going for a legit Stanley cup contending 1st line, you need a Wheeler, Kessel, Kucherov type guy. Someone who drives the play and completes that line.

Simmonds along side Tkachuk and Backlund would be a dream though. A complete energy/shutdown line.

Gaudreau - Monahan - XXX
Tkachuk - Backlund - Simmonds
Ferland - Janko - Mangiapane
Versteeg - Beagle - Hathaway

Trade bait - Bennett, Fox, Frolik, Brodie (And not opposed to Hamilton only if it's for a true #1 RW)

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by TheKurgan

To Calgary: Nylander or Simmonds
To Toronto/Philly: Brodie+ Prospects if needed

I don't see Philly needing Brodie as they have a plethora of good young D men but maybe if the add to Brodie is a very good prospect and they need a D that might work although I think Simmonds could drop off a cliff. There is nothing prospect wise we can add to Brodie to fetch Nylander, that is simply not happening.

[Toonage]

Going to drop this here, a sort of bizarre look at what the Flames need next year from TSN's Scott Cullen

https://www.tsn.ca/off-season-game-p...ames-1.1092313

[SuperMatt18]

I honestly think Wayne Simmonds would be a Troy Brouwer like mistake. Don't give up big assets or a big contract to him.

Brouwer before Calgary:

15/16: 39 pts in 82 games - 29 ES points (30 years old)
14/15: 42 pts in 82 games - 27 ES points (29 years old)

Simmonds last two seasons

17/18: 54 pts in 82 games - 28 ES points (29)
16/17: 46 pts in 75 games - 27 ES points (28)

Don't over pay for a guy who is going to be on the wrong side of 30, whose numbers are inflated because he plays for a great PP with talented linemates - much like Brouwer was in Washington and St.Louis.

This isn't the 24-27 year old Simmonds who was a physical force and drove play - much more limited in his skill set now and slowing down from a skating perspective.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Going to drop this here, a sort of bizarre look at what the Flames need next year from TSN's Scott Cullen

https://www.tsn.ca/off-season-game-p...ames-1.1092313

I think he got the most important stuff right: The Flames need an upgrade on the right side, and improved depth.

I thought Craig Button's short video breakdown was entirely on-point.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think he got the most important stuff right: The Flames need an upgrade on the right side, and improved depth.

I thought Craig Button's short video breakdown was entirely on-point.

I found his suggestions that we need defensemen odd.

Lists it as an area of strength then suggests they need more. Unless he meant Valimaki & Andersson coming in to replace Brodie/Stone. I don't know, just seemed contradictory.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Haha. They only need to fill 3 top 9 forward spots in my estimation. That's not as bad as you make it out to be IMO.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Backlund, Frolik and Ferland are all fine where I've put them. None of them are over there heads are they?

Gaudreau, Monahan - legit 1st liners
Tkachuk - legit 2nd liner with room to grow
Ferland, Backlund, Frolik - not one of those guys are in over there heads as 3rd liners are they?

That leaves three spots to fill. Not that bad.

Frolik is a 30 year old player coming off a 25 pt in 70 game -19 season playing on a line with a centre just extended 5.35 x 6 and a 19 year old putting up 49 pts -1 in 68 games and doing the dirty work on the line.

If the mob hadn't already buried Brouwer, he did not look bad compared to Frolik. Had Brouwer played the whole season with Backlund and Tkachuk he couldn't have done much worse than Frolik.

If you include Frolik in your top -9 then you can include Brouwer, Jankowski and Bennett who had seasons as good as Frolik and you have 9 players who are top-9 and no changes are required.

On the other hand dropping Frolik leaves the Flames with 4 top-9 spots to fill in.

The trouble is even somehow rationalizing Frolik as a legitimate 3rd liner like he was in Chicago 6 years ago the Flames are left needing 1 on the top line and 2 on the second line ... ie 3 out of the top-6.

[genetic_phreek]

Buffalo seems to need defense. I wouldn't mind swapping Brodie for a young guy like Reinhart to play wing.

I wouldn't mind us unloading Brodie/Stone+ or both and try to get a young player for RW.

C. Kreider
W. Nylander
S. Reinhart
M. Domi
J. Virtanen

[MarkGio]

I think that breakaway speed is what the Flames have been missing in their line-up since Byron left. I believe they will make a trade for Kapenen and sign Grabner.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Bennett - ES 2nd liner who hasn't produced on the power play or actually played with 2nd liners at ES. You can call him a 3rd liner for argument's sake but there is no question he is top 9 on any team in the league.

I question that.

Boston?

Marchand, Pastarnak, Bergeron, Krejci, Nash, other Nash/Spooner, Backes, Heinen, DeBrusk.

That's 10 players on that team alone who Bennett wouldn't displace in the top 9.

Kucherov, Stamkos, Point, Gourde, Killorn, Johnson, Namestnikov, Kunitz, Palat, Callahan, Miller. Callahn's struggled, but the other 10 were superior to Bennett this year.

Did he out play Connolly or Vrana from Washington? Because he certainly didn't outplay Ovechkin, Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Oshie, Eller, Burakovsky, Wilson.

Pavelski, Couture, Hertl, Labanc, Kane, Tierney, Boedker, Thornton, Donskoi, Meier.

Wheeler, Laine, Scheifele, Ehlers, Connor, Little, Perreault, Statsny, and Lowry outperformed him. Roslovic was more productive in his short sample size, Armia and Copp outproduced him on the fourth line.

[SuperMatt18]

Bennett had 23 even strength points placing him 7th among Flames forwards.

Boston 23 ES points would have placed him 10th.
Tampa Bay he'd have been 10th.
San Jose he'd have been 8th.
Winnipeg he'd be 9th.
Vegas he'd be 9th.
Washington he'd be 8th/9th.

So even if he made no real improvements we'd be okay if he was our 8th or 9th best forward. Problem is we only have 4 forwards that are clearly better than him: Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Backlund.

Then a couple of forwards that I'd place in a similar group - Ferland, Frolik, Jankowski.

Honestly we need to improve at least two of Ferland, Frolik, Jankowski, and Bennett in our top 9 to have any shot of contending next year.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Bennett had 23 even strength points placing him 7th among Flames forwards.


Winnipeg he'd be 9th.

I didn't check the others, and while I guess technically correct, this is a bit misleading. He would be tied for 9th/10th with Armia, correct. But Lowry had 19 even-strength points in 45 games, Roslovic had 14 in 31 games. And of course Statsny had only 9 even strength points with Winnipeg but 43 this season.

So the team that went into the playoffs for Winnipeg had 12 players with a better point-per-game (even strength or not) than Bennett - that includes their fourth line. Unless he found chemistry, it's likely he's fighting with Tanev for the injury replacement spot on the fourth line.

But, yeah, I agree with your point. Bennett as a 9th forward would not be the end of the world. As long as there were 8 other players better than him. That hasn't been the case with the Flames.

[SuperMatt18]

Yup forward depth is easily this teams biggest issue - also why I think a lot were frustrated with the assets spend on Hamonic/Stone in the offseason (picks/cap space).

The final 4 in the playoffs this year finished 1, 2, 4, 6 in ES goals for this season. Pittsburgh finished 1st last year, and 4th the year before. Being able to score at even strength is key come playoff time.

This year the average for the top 10 teams was ~200 GF at ES.

That was done by getting ~170 ES goals from Forwards, and ~30 ES goals from d-men.

The Flames this year got 135 ES goals from forwards, and 31 ES goals from our defense.

So really we need to find/add 35 even strength goals to our forward group for next year if we really want to get into the top echelon of the league.

That is going to be no easy task. Really like others here have mentioned we need to replace two of our 4th liners that produced nothing with guys that can score 10-15 goals at even strength and then hope of growth from others (Bennett, Jankowski, Tkachuk).

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yup forward depth is easily this teams biggest issue - also why I think a lot were frustrated with the assets spend on Hamonic/Stone in the offseason (picks/cap space).

The final 4 in the playoffs this year finished 1, 2, 4, 6 in ES goals for this season. Pittsburgh finished 1st last year, and 4th the year before. Being able to score at even strength is key come playoff time.

This year the average for the top 10 teams was ~200 GF at ES.

That was done by getting ~170 ES goals from Forwards, and ~30 ES goals from d-men.

The Flames this year got 135 ES goals from forwards, and 31 ES goals from our defense.

So really we need to find/add 35 even strength goals to our forward group for next year if we really want to get into the top echelon of the league.

That is going to be no easy task. Really like others here have mentioned we need to replace two of our 4th liners that produced nothing with guys that can score 10-15 goals at even strength and then hope of growth from others (Bennett, Jankowski, Tkachuk).

Yeap, forward is a problem and we need to ask ourselves if the following have it in them to bring what we need next season:

Brouwer, Jankowski, Bennett, Mangiapane, Foo, Dube, Poirier, Klimchuk, Lazar, Shore, Hathaway, Phillips, Gawdin

Because that is what we currently have to work with around Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Backlund, Ferland and Frolik. If the answer is no then we need to get trading some D men for forward help, or get active in free agency (yikes). Otherwise the only other option is to be patient.

And yeah, as I've mentioned before, I have no faith in any combination of Shore, Lazar or Hathaway leading the charge on the 4th line. These guys have a lot of NHL games combined with very few NHL goals. For a team that struggled to score, that is not likely a recipe for success.