the ongoing anti- racism, anti- oppression thread

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Yeah, and Taylor Hall supported Torres costume. When you're on the same side of the debate as Hall and Torres, I think that's about as clear indication that you're on the wrong side.

But they always end up issuing an apologizing because of the backlash, for a reason.

Oh, I am certainly not defending them, not sure where you got that idea. Its simply a dumb thing to do and I don't get why people do it.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Right...to the majority of them, we absolutely should.

So if the black community voted 51% in favour of this being offensive during their annual black person vote, you would argue it is indeed offensive but anything less doesn't count? Or how many minorities can a white person offend before they have to face backlash?

Originally Posted by transplant99

I will ask this question...how does one dress up as another of a different color, without being that color? Or should dressing up as another race be shamed all together? Can black people dress as famous Asians for fun? Can indigenous dress as Middle Easterners for fun? Should Michael Jackson have been scorned for becoming lighter?

You're right that it's not an exact science. It's a difficult situation, stemming from years and years of racial abuse and more recently an opportunity and platform for people to express their frustrations.

However, how much does the black makeup actually matter? With Howie, Simon and Heidi, they're either going to pick up on that being Mel B or not, regardless of blackface.

Get creative with your costume. Wear a sweater, roofie an unsuspecting woman and carry her around all night and everyone will know you're Cosby regardless of your complexion. If it's really important that you're dark, have some commitment and tan-tan-tan until you're sure to cancer. If the only way someone will identify you is if you have black makeup on, it's arguably not that identifiable of a costume. Or maybe if you're going for a group costume with a minority in it, have a minority who wants to dress up?

I get it, I probably would have been on your side a couple years ago. But at the end of the day, her decision to wear blackface offended a number of people. How many? I don't know, but as a teacher all it would really take is one of the marginalized students in her class. This wasn't a comedian pushing the edge and making it work.

We still have the right to offend, I'm a proponent of freedom of expression. We also have the right to be offended. We also have the consequences of being reprimanded for actions that cause offense, such as this teacher having to apologize. At the end of the day, I certainly agree that it's a stupid hill to die on but I see it from the other side and just don't see the need to cause offense.

[FireGilbert]

Racist signs ranting against Asians were discovered in Sydney the other day:

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/rea...6e3008a72b5eb1

Tips for racists: If you are making a sign with the big bold letters "We Speak English" maybe spend a few minutes checking your spelling.

[CliffFletcher]

Is there really no meaningful distinction between historic blackface and what this teacher did? No point distinguishing between cruelly exaggerating the features of blacks to caricature and ridicule them, and a teacher coloring her skin to look like a musician who she enjoys?

Should we broaden the definition of lynching next? Use it to refer to any racially-motivated violence against blacks? It should be apparent why this kind of re-definition can have the opposite effects than its champions intend.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Of course there's a distinction. It's the difference between the school apologizing and saying it will educate its teachers, and firing her on the spot. Call it whatever you want, just realize that people will be offended and it's up to the individual whether to ignore that and potentially face consequences for doing so.

NSFW!

This guy also saw a distinction though, and believes that what he said isn't racist...

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Is there really no meaningful distinction between historic blackface and what this teacher did? No point distinguishing between cruelly exaggerating the features of blacks to caricature and ridicule them, and a teacher coloring her skin to look like a musician who she enjoys?

Should we broaden the definition of lynching next? Use it to refer to any racially-motivated violence against blacks? It should be apparent why this kind of re-definition can have the opposite effects than its champions intend.

Nope, apparently not.

Because 1 guy (from what i have read) says its blackface, it is now to be taken as such. No room for questioning that either...at least according to some.

Yay.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Lol at Transplant99, regardless of how many times you give him examples of people being outraged over XXXX celebrity using blackface, news articles literally saying that XXXX faced "huge backlash" for their use of blackface, he's gong to pretend that only one person is offended with its use.

Marginalize - treat (a person, group, or concept) as insignificant or peripheral.

Hmm, I wonder why people are feeling marginalized these days.

[icecube]

She's getting off with an apology and a write up. What she did was stupid. If she had gone full blown historic blackface she'd lose her teaching career. That's the distinction.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Nope, apparently not.

Because 1 guy (from what i have read) says its blackface, it is now to be taken as such. No room for questioning that either...at least according to some.

Yay.

Because it is defined as something, does not mean we have to treat every iteration of that thing the same or that we can’t have nuanced conversations about that thing.

It’s an odd hill to die on, fighting about what to call it just to give yourself permission to act a certain way about it.

It’s blackface, that’s what it appears to be, that’s what it’s being called. Is blackface offensive to a lot of people? Sure. Is this example of blackface the most offensive? No. But does every example of blackface fit into Cliff’s rigid definition of it being a purposely cruel act to ridicule black people? Absolutely not, and to think so is basically ignoring of the history of blackface. Regardless of intention, we look back on it and have generally agreed that it’s a sore spot in our history, even if people didn’t intend harm by doing it, we know they caused it.

Same here. I don’t think she meant any harm, but it’s one of many examples of an issue we’ve sort of silently agreed not to do.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Lol at Transplant99, regardless of how many times you give him examples of people being outraged over XXXX celebrity using blackface, news articles literally saying that XXXX faced "huge backlash" for their use of blackface, he's gong to pretend that only one person is offended with its use.

Marginalize - treat (a person, group, or concept) as insignificant or peripheral.

Hmm, I wonder why people are feeling marginalized these days.

LOL @ the guy who cannot comprehend what he reads.

I am, have been and continue to talk about THIS incident..what part of this can you not grasp?

You keep bringing up a bunch of other stuff that has zero to do with this one...cause this is not that.

I am marginalizing no one except people that continue to defend that which is pretty hard to defend to anyone with the ability to think even a little bit.

That OK with you?

Are others allowed to disagree with your rhetoric or do just want a love in of faux outrage?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by icecube

She's getting off with an apology and a write up. What she did was stupid. If she had gone full blown historic blackface she'd lose her teaching career. That's the distinction.

I suggest there is nothing there to be written up about nor to apologize for since there was no intention of anything but dressing up like a TV celebrity to have a little fun with the school.

Again, maybe I am wrong.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by transplant99

LOL @ the guy who cannot comprehend what he reads.

I am, have been and continue to talk about THIS incident..what part of this can you not grasp?

Oh, so this incident is fine because they only have three people declare it as offensive in the news. Instead of everyone who disagrees with it being quoted, despite no one actually coming to her defense in the same articles...

Originally Posted by transplant99

You keep bringing up a bunch of other stuff that has zero to do with this one...cause this is not that.

Other people dressing up in very similar costumes and being faced with extreme backlash has zero to do with this? The point is pretty simply, dress up in blackface, (or dress up as a black person if you really going to get triggered by that word) get caught, and you're not a comedian? You going to have a bad time.

Originally Posted by transplant99

I am marginalizing no one except people that continue to defend that which is pretty hard to defend to anyone with the ability to think even a little bit.

That OK with you?

"I'm not marginalizing anyone, just anyone who disagrees with my viewpoint does not have the ability to think." Gotcha.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Same here. I don’t think she meant any harm, but it’s one of many examples of an issue we’ve sort of silently agreed not to do.

Is it, though? I see icecube protest a couple of times that "as a teacher, she should have known better" but no indication of WHY she should know better, beyond being a teacher.

I realize that "the interwebz" seems like a big community, but it's not, really. I've seen numbers ranging from 10-20% of people/adults in the US don't use/have access to the internet, and worldwide, approximately half of the population is "offline" (That kinda surprised me, honestly, I thought it'd be higher).

If someone isn't one much for the internet and misses the nightly news to catch a Friends rerun or something...how is one to know that "we've sort of silently agreed not to do" [x]?

Taking my own general online habits into consideration, most of my info would come from here, CP, or Facebook. I don't do Twitter or Tumblr (which is where a lot of these 'silent agreements' seem to come from). If Tumblr decides that "we've kind of silently agreed not to do" something, and I someone doesn't talk about it on Facebook or here, I will likely miss it.

I find assuming that people should just "know stuff" because "it was/is an issue online" is not really a good reason for excoriating someone on the basis of "they should know better." I have found, especially due to what I do for a living, that there is a lot of stuff that you'd think most people "should know" but don't.

Things also fade from memory in time. I've found it interesting that every time this 'blackface controversy' re-emerges, someone has to explain what blackface is, since the majority of the general public don't seem to know.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity". I often feel that you can also replace stupidity with 'ignorance' and it works as well.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity". I often feel that you can also replace stupidity with 'ignorance' and it works as well.

I agree with this 100%, which is why I don’t really feel the conversation is “HEY LOOK AT THIS MENACING NAZI” and rather “Stupid lady does stupid thing that society wishes people would stop reminding others we did a lot for fun.”

It’s like using a phrase we’ve more or less “retired.” Some people don’t get the memo, but they get it eventually, sometimes long after the majority of people have.

The thing about something like blackface, and it’s true here, is that not everyone who has ever done it is a racist, but it’s something that was born out of racism, so like it or not, ever instance can pretty easily be traced back to it. That means we need to be aware of it. Not that we need to destroy these people, but they damn well better get the stupid/ignorance educated right out of them.

[Oling_Roachinen]

I would say that this isn't a new online trend though. I've known not use make-up to go as a black character/actor/athlete/whatever long before I was using social media sites on the internet. Again, don't blame her, think she unintentionally made a mistake and should own up to it and move on. But it's not like she just happened to miss the 1 o'clock tumblr meeting on this ha.

https://ask.metafilter.com/49561/Black-like-me

Here's a thread asking for advice about using black make up over ten years ago (I know not exactly pre-internet days) but you can see the extremely overwhelming response is to not do it, with dozens of responses.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Who are these offended people though? That's what i'm asking, and if its a small vocal group, then should we cater to them if the majority are not? So far who have we heard this from in this incident?

Im not saying no one is offended, anywhere, but thanks for that. Perhaps I am out of touch but through my interactions with the visible minorities in my life, I cant think of a single one who would give this kind of thing a second thought.

I am saying those that have any degree of critical thinking and are not on some sort of agenda, simply could not logically come to the conclusion that something this seemingly innocent could be taken as legitimately offensive.

Someone dressing up as someone else, seems like a really dumb hill to die on as far as racism and oppression goes. How else would she do so without being black when the panel is what it is on that show?

Again, maybe I am dead wrong and this will give rise to a huge backlash from blacks everywhere. I just give them more credit than that though.

For the first bolded part, I remember you posted a GIF once of monkeys in reference to an African American player and you said you had no idea that it was a racist reference to black people, so it was mentioned that it most definitely is to you, so I guess I question how much value your statement referencing the visible minorities in your life really is.

And for the other bolded statement at the end there, it reads as a very passive aggressive way to claim that somehow if "they" disagree with your opinion or dare to feel offended, then they're somehow not worthy of your apparent elevated opinion of "them".

[longsuffering]

Winnipeg Rifles president resigns over P.K. Subban post.

The president of the Winnipeg Rifles has resigned after coming under fire for a Facebook post he calls "a poor attempt at humour" that used a picture of a vendor at Bell MTS Place to make fun of P.K. Subban.

In the post, Todd Wilson said "Two nights ago he was in game 7. Now PK Suban is selling me beer." The post includes a photo of the vendor, who like Subban happens to be black, as the Jets were playing the Vegas Golden Knights in the opening game of the Stanley Cup Western Conference finals.

I'm not saying Todd Wilson is a racist but his Facebook post was racial in nature and in poor taste so it should be no surprise to anyone that people would be offended.

I'm sure we'll hear from the apologists here.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Winnipeg Rifles president resigns over P.K. Subban post.

I'm not saying Todd Wilson is a racist but his Facebook post was racial in nature and in poor taste so it should be no surprise to anyone that people would be offended.

I'm sure we'll hear from the apologists here.

No no, see, it’s those libs falling for the extremist ideologues in this thread. Nobody is really offended, and if they are, we have to poll how many so we know it’s the majority before we agree that it’s offensive. This might take a while.

The guy got one thing right, that was an incredibly bad attempt at humour. It was basically “Hey, the guy serving me beer is black, PK Subban is also black! lololol”

Goes very well with what I was saying earlier. There are certain things we’ve sort of “moved on from” as a society, and jokes like that are one of them. Hope Wilson has learned a valuable lesson.

[SebC]

If we consider what this teacher did to be blackface, then we can no longer say that "blackface is racist" and may only say that "blackface is sometimes racist", so one should question if pushing for such an expanded definition is actually helpful or harmful to the goal of combatting racism.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Winnipeg Rifles president resigns over P.K. Subban post.



I'm not saying Todd Wilson is a racist but his Facebook post was racial in nature and in poor taste so it should be no surprise to anyone that people would be offended.

I'm sure we'll hear from the apologists here.

I don’t think you will. The guy is a complete jackass for making those comments, and I’m not sympathetic at all that it cost him his job.