Putin scores 5 goals in exhibition hockey game with former NHLers

[timbit]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Do you realize how major this is?

Understood.

However, if it keeps you from being poisoned, probably worth it.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Do you realize how major this is?

No, I don't. It is not all that major. If we had free speech and real elections, I would still most likely not participate in any political discussions and probably wouldn't bother to vote anyway. I am also underwhelmed by low quality of leaders that US democracy system produce, which make me believe that just because someone was elected in real elections, such as Bush-jr, does not necessarily mean that he would do a better job, than a man, who won not so "real" elections, such as Putin. In the end of the day, the whole point of elections is to put the best man to do the job, and I do believe that Putin is better at doing his job, than most of those elected in free countries.

[N-E-B]

I'd rather have boobs like Trump and Bush Jr. running the show and freedom than have a competent leader and no freedom.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Pointman

No, I don't. It is not all that major. If we had free speech and real elections, I would still most likely not participate in any political discussions and probably wouldn't bother to vote anyway. I am also underwhelmed by low quality of leaders that US democracy system produce, which make me believe that just because someone was elected in real elections, such as Bush-jr, does not necessarily mean that he would do a better job, than a man, who won not so "real" elections, such as Putin. In the end of the day, the whole point of elections is to put the best man to do the job, and I do believe that Putin is better at doing his job, than most of those elected in free countries.

I expect mostly the same sentiment applies to the average American. Who is in power has next to zero relevance to the average citizen.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

I'd rather have boobs like Trump and Bush Jr. running the show and freedom than have a competent leader and no freedom.

But why? Do you believe, that freedom has a value in itself? To me, freedom is basically a tool. It is designed so that public should have some means to hold their leaders accountable and thus make them perform better. I get the idea. I do, in general, support freedom. However, one should not become too fascinated with glorified tool and become blind to the actual results. Election system and freedom in general is only as good, as the leaders it produces. The whole reason the monarchy became obsolete was because it had become apparent that a son of a king is not always the best man for the job. The whole reason why democracy is, in general, better than dictatorship, is because it keeps the leader somewhat accountable and thus makes him perform better. However, something seems to be failing. People are not very good in selecting the right man for the job. The accountability mechanism, though better than in dictatorship, does not help much either. You may be free to lambast Trump on twitter, but it does not really change anything about one's mundane life.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Pointman

But why? Do you believe, that freedom has a value in itself? To me, freedom is basically a tool. It is designed so that public should have some means to hold their leaders accountable and thus make them perform better. I get the idea.

No, you really don't get the idea. What you're talking about is democracy, which is not the same as freedom. The whole point of freedom is that the state does not have unlimited power: it is forbidden to make laws that violate your basic rights, and you require no official permission to do things that are not forbidden by law. It's not about the quality of the country's leaders. It's about giving people the ability to control their own lives, so a bad leader can't do as much damage.

[EldrickOnIce]

And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five, who will?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

No, you really don't get the idea. What you're talking about is democracy, which is not the same as freedom. The whole point of freedom is that the state does not have unlimited power: it is forbidden to make laws that violate your basic rights, and you require no official permission to do things that are not forbidden by law. It's not about the quality of the country's leaders. It's about giving people the ability to control their own lives, so a bad leader can't do as much damage.

Not to mention the horribly flawed "My life is okay and so are many, so politics don't really matter". I guess a clear take away from that is Pointman isn't and doesn't know anyone in the LGBTQ community.

But they should just be like Pointman and not undermine the government or worry about politics, and boom, they're just like a free, democratic society!!

[VladtheImpaler]

The systems that produced the best leaders were the Roman republic and the British 18th/19th century. Once you let everyone vote, the whole thing goes to ****.