2017/2018 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Strongly agree with the winger comment above. Dougie is worth more than any winger in the league. Only winger trade I have liked so far is mark stone + 4th (brady Tkachuk) for hamilton and bennett

Haha, no way we get the 4th overall PLUS Stone for Hamilton and a project. And why do we always pick Tkachuk when we amazingly get a high pick?

[Royle9]

Once again people jump all over ANYONE who mentions the idea of trading away Dougie, the argument can go both ways here guys.

I dont think ANYONE wants to dump Hamilton just because we can and maybe get back some equal assets or a 1 for 1 trade. (Sorry some might but not myself)

The idea MOST poster's here are exploring is just how MUCH of a PREMIUM we could get for Dougie that would make this team BETTER in the top6 moving forward.

Yes I think MOST of us agree that Dougie is a great defenseman, myself included he's obviously elite as the stats indicated this year. HOWEVER if you have a chance to trade Dougie for an 80-90pt (top 2 forward on the flames) + picks or A level prospects you have to pull the trigger don't you?

Everyone is hung up on the notion of the trade, but not what we could potentially get back here as an over payment. History dictates that Elite defenseman usually command a premium and in some cases a big over payment.

Nylander + 1st for Hamilton = No brainer
Marner + 2nd for Hamilton = No brainer
Stone + 4th OA for Hamilton+ = No brainer

These are the scenarios MOST of us are suggesting, sure maybe they are a pipe dream to some extent but its fun to think about and trades like the 3 above and they make us a better team today then we were last season.
If we retain Dougie and still add a good scoring forward via FA or trading say Brodie then I'd be more than happy to keep him, however hes the only asset we have that helps get us a franchise 80-90pt forward unfortunately.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Haha, no way we get the 4th overall PLUS Stone for Hamilton and a project. And why do we always pick Tkachuk when we amazingly get a high pick?

Bennett ain't no ordinary project. Former top 5 pick. Still has high upside. What's wrong with Brady Tkachuk top 5? That's where he's ranked by a lot of scouts. Lots of people doubted the last Tkachuk was worth taking, I think the scouts were right there. I think GranteedEV didn't even have Matt Tkachuk in his top 8-10 that year in his sig.

Hard to say how even that deal is. I think OTT might have to add even. You think CGY would have to add. Obviously people disagree on Hamilton's value and Bennett's value. If Bennett's value isn't high then there's no point dealing him. I'm not sure why that poster was throwing him in the Hamilton deals.

Hamilton for Stone and the 4th would be pretty tempting. Dunno if their management would be willing to part with it.

[Poe969]

I wish other GM's around the league valued Brodie as much as CP does. If the sens are going to move Stone, it would be amazing to do a package around Brodie + Ferland and/or Bennett for Stone +#4 pick this year. Or even use that as the framework I would do something like Hamilton + Ferland for Stone and their first.

I think there's a deal there to be made, especially if the sens end up trading Karlsson, they're going to want a high end defender to replace him.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Bennett ain't no ordinary project. Former top 5 pick. Still has high upside. What's wrong with Brady Tkachuk top 5? That's where he's ranked by a lot of scouts. Lots of people doubted the last Tkachuk was worth taking, I think the scouts were right there. I think GranteedEV didn't even have Matt Tkachuk in his top 8-10 that year in his sig.

Hard to say how even that deal is. I think OTT might have to add even. You think CGY would have to add. Obviously people disagree on Hamilton's value and Bennett's value. If Bennett's value isn't high then there's no point dealing him. I'm not sure why that poster was throwing him in the Hamilton deals.

Hamilton for Stone and the 4th would be pretty tempting. Dunno if their management would be willing to part with it.

Wait, what? You think Ottawa might have to ADD after giving us Mark Stone AND the 4th overall pick? I've been defending Hamilton as a big trade chip, but this is crazy.

You could get Mark Stone for sure, but maybe I think you guys are underestimating what it takes to move into the top 5 draft picks? And then Ottawa adds on top of that?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

And what if a team offers you a top two line player, top prospect and a 1st? Do you hang up cause his contract is so good or do you listen cause it might improve the Flames? Obviously it would have to be the right forward and top prospect but all some of us are saying is that Treliving WILL listen and that it’s likely some teams will offer some big packages for a guy like Hamilton’s whose value is sky high and who would be a perfect fit for some teams who desperately need a top pairing RH puck moving dman in his prime.

Haha what!?

Also a package for Hamilton is a mistake as outlined several time in this thread.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Wait, what? You think Ottawa might have to ADD after giving us Mark Stone AND the 4th overall pick? I've been defending Hamilton as a big trade chip, but this is crazy.

You could get Mark Stone for sure, but maybe I think you guys are underestimating what it takes to move into the top 5 draft picks? And then Ottawa adds on top of that?

Well the proposal had Bennett in it, a former top 5 pick himself. I wouldn’t be giving him away and he seems to be missing from your equation.

Hamilton is easily worth more than Stone. Top pairing defencemen are worth way more than wingers. Bennett IMO you wouldn’t be trading for anything less than a mid 1st. i certainly wouldn’t add anything more from CGY’s end and if you’re looking for an overpayment to dealing Hamilton then yeah maybe OTT would have to add.

Personally I think it doesn’t make any sense to be dealing Bennett as I doubt his trade value is as high as his upside. So best to keep him.

Hamilton you only deal if you get an overpayment IMO. So take what you think is a fair deal and then add a bit more from the other team

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Haha what!?

Also a package for Hamilton is a mistake as outlined several time in this thread.

I don’t really buy into that argument. Trading Hamilton 1 for 1 would be the mistake unless we’re getting a top 10 forward. Only make sense to deal him for a package of multiple A level assets. I’m not talking a quantity for quality type trade. I’m talking several quality pieces for Hamilton.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I don’t really buy into that argument. Trading Hamilton 1 for 1 would be the mistake unless we’re getting a top 10 forward. Only make sense to deal him for a package of multiple A level assets. I’m not talking a quantity for quality type trade. I’m talking several quality pieces for Hamilton.

The point I was trying to make with his contract being incredibly attractive is I believe you could easily get a top line winger for him.... IF one is available. But I don’t really see any I think any teams would move. Adding a prospect, a pick, and a top 6 forward while opening that hole on D does nothing to improve the team for at least the next two seasons. Just seems like a waste.

(Based on Hamilton, Johnny, Monahan and Tkachuk are all in their primes)

[Vinny01]

Stone+4th overall for Hamilton and Bennett would be an interesting deal. Don’t know if then Sens would do it but I would jump at that from the Flames

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I think GranteedEV didn't even have Matt Tkachuk in his top 8-10 that year in his sig.

If we're gonna name drop like this, then I should probably remind you that the guys I had ahead of Tkachuk were primarily Matthews, Laine, Puljujarvi, Dubois, Sergachyev, Keller, (and I don't remember exactly, but maybe Chychrun)

I'm not saying I didn't make any mistakes or that the scouts aren't to be trusted, but I still think all the guys above save Puljujarvi/Chychrun are guys who haven't looked worse than Tkachuk at all, and are players you not only win with, but players that would have helped this team play an uptempo style a la Tampa, Vegas or Winnipeg. Tkachuk's been awesome but I still think Dubois, Keller and Sergachev are studs. Puljujarvi's the big surprise. And I think Chyuchrun is probably an upgrade on Travis Hamonic, right now, which would have allowed us to use our 2018 picks, albeit probably not on a player as good as Tkachuk (unless a Connor/Barzal/Boeser type guy fell to us at 12).

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

If we're gonna name drop like this, then I should probably remind you that the guys I had ahead of Tkachuk were primarily Matthews, Laine, Puljujarvi, Dubois, Sergachyev, Keller, (and I don't remember exactly, but maybe Chychrun)

I'm not saying I didn't make any mistakes or that the scouts aren't to be trusted, but I still think all the guys above save Puljujarvi/Chychrun are guys who haven't looked worse than Tkachuk at all, and are players you not only win with, but players that would have helped this team play an uptempo style a la Tampa, Vegas or Winnipeg. Tkachuk's been awesome but I still think Dubois, Keller and Sergachev are studs. Puljujarvi's the big surprise. And I think Chyuchrun is probably an upgrade on Travis Hamonic, right now, which would have allowed us to use our 2018 picks, albeit probably not on a player as good as Tkachuk (unless a Connor/Barzal/Boeser type guy fell to us at 12).

Yeah the top end of that draft was pretty crazy. It would’ve been hard to go wrong. Heck McAvoy would’ve been a fine pick as well. Only Juolevi and Nylander look questionable out of the top 9. But there were a lot of fans on this board on the Nylander bandwagon. At #6 we were guaranteed a choice of a few great prospects. My favourite one outside the top 3 ended up falling to us, so I was ecstatic.

Anyways I think Brady Tkachuk is being underrated by some fans on this board. Which is strange since we are so familiar with how good his brother is. There’s a reason he’s rated highly and this talk of him being massively overrated seems silly to me. Reminds me of Matthew’s draft year where we had fans saying Tkachuk rode the coat tails of Marner/Dvorak and had no elite skills. Not saying you in particular said those things GranteedEV but there was definitely a lot of interesting discussion on the top prospects that year.

Anyways no need to debate the top end this year that much unless Treliving pulls off a big trade.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Pronger was traded for Lupul, Sbisa, two 1sts and a 2nd. Lupul was a former top 10 pick coming off a 28 goal, 53 point year in his second NHL season. Sbisa was a young defensemen with top 4 upside. Two 1sts and a 2nd is more than what we traded for Hamilton..

Not quite. I think you've combind the best aspects of his trade to Anaheim and out of Anaheim.

Deal 1 was young Lupul with perceived upside, Ladislav Smid a first in 07 and a 2nd. There was a condition for another first if Anaheim won the Stanley Cup. I think the original deal was 2-2nd's with one becoming a first if they won the cup which they did.

The other deal was a more known Lupul who had been a bit hot and cold, Sbisa, and 2 first round picks.

In deal 1 Pronger is in his prime and just got Edmonton close to the cup with 5 years on his contact at a high but manageable cap hit at the time. In deal 2 he had one year left on his deal and was older.

Deal 1 was an decent collection of assets at the end with Eberle and Hamonic being two of the three players chosen with the picks that were traded. But it was also like trading Erik Karlsson signed for 5 more years in terms of today's player value.

Really an equivelent deal of the better package would not help the Flames enough in the next three years to be worth it.

So it probably is better to keep Hamilton. I don't think he has the same value as peak of his prime Pronger.

But I'm sure some will pitchfork me for thinking that too (Hamilton not being worth as much as Pronger)...

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

So it probably is better to keep Hamilton. I don't think he has the same value as peak of his prime Pronger.

But I'm sure some will pitchfork me for thinking that too (Hamilton not being worth as much as Pronger)...

Anyone who pitchforks you for that opinion should be thoroughly disregarded.

[Nelson]

I think a lot of these trade proposals are illustrations of why it is so dangerous to trade star players: you rarely get what you think your player is worth in return.

For example, there is almost no chance the Flames will get Stone and the 4th overall from Ottawa for Dougie Hamilton. Based on history, they would probably get one of two things:
(1) a package of less valuable assets: a middle 6 RH forward, a 1st round pick, a 2nd round pick and possibly a prospect depending on how good the middle 6 forward is or
(2) a lesser but still pretty good player who plays a position of need. An example of the 2nd type of return is like what the Oilers got for Taylor Hall (hahaha).

Part of the reason I think the Flames should not trade Dougie Hamilton is I think he is awesome and has untapped potential I want him to realize.

The other part is the Flames are just not likely to get full value. I mean, sure, if they get offered Mark Stone (with a new contract) and the 4th overall pick, you probably trade Dougie Hamilton. But what are the chances of that happening? Why would Ottawa do that?

The big reason why I think the Flames are absolutely guaranteed to get 70 cents on the dollar in a trade of Dougie Hamilton is that they have not allowed him to realize his potential with the Flames.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Anyone who pitchforks you for that opinion should be thoroughly disregarded.

100% agree.

Peek Pronger owned one half of the ice and would destroy anyone who entered his domain. He ripped players faces off for free, skated like the wind, and averaged the equivalent of 49 points per 82 games throughout his entire career.

The guy brought three different teams to the SCF.

He is one of the all-time greats on defence.

If anyone says that Dougie Hamilton = Chris Pronger in his prime, they must be mistaking Bobby Orr or Nick Lidstrom for Dougie Hamilton.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Once again people jump all over ANYONE who mentions the idea of trading away Dougie, the argument can go both ways here guys.

I dont think ANYONE wants to dump Hamilton just because we can and maybe get back some equal assets or a 1 for 1 trade. (Sorry some might but not myself)

The idea MOST poster's here are exploring is just how MUCH of a PREMIUM we could get for Dougie that would make this team BETTER in the top6 moving forward.

Yes I think MOST of us agree that Dougie is a great defenseman, myself included he's obviously elite as the stats indicated this year. HOWEVER if you have a chance to trade Dougie for an 80-90pt (top 2 forward on the flames) + picks or A level prospects you have to pull the trigger don't you?

Everyone is hung up on the notion of the trade, but not what we could potentially get back here as an over payment. History dictates that Elite defenseman usually command a premium and in some cases a big over payment.

Nylander + 1st for Hamilton = No brainer
Marner + 2nd for Hamilton = No brainer
Stone + 4th OA for Hamilton+ = No brainer

These are the scenarios MOST of us are suggesting, sure maybe they are a pipe dream to some extent but its fun to think about and trades like the 3 above and they make us a better team today then we were last season.
If we retain Dougie and still add a good scoring forward via FA or trading say Brodie then I'd be more than happy to keep him, however hes the only asset we have that helps get us a franchise 80-90pt forward unfortunately.

You talk about trading Hamilton for an 80-90 point winger plus picks, but who will be offering that? Then you suggest Nylander who is a one dimensional forward with a career high of 61 points.

That’s far from a big over payment

[Ullr]

Originally Posted by bax

You talk about trading Hamilton for an 80-90 point winger plus picks, but who will be offering that? Then you suggest Nylander who is a one dimensional forward with a career high of 61 points.

That’s far from a big over payment

I'd never take more Toronto players on the current Flames team. Stajan was enough.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

[jg13]

Originally Posted by Ullr

I'd never take more Toronto players on the current Flames team. Stajan was enough.

I wouldn't take Matthews either

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Bingo I appreciate all of these stats. Praising them and reverting back to the luck argument however is not quite enough.

Consider how the Flames advanced stats translated to success. It didn’t.

Remember that 10 game run, outshooting teams on average approximately 40-28, being outscored by 16 and being 3-6-1? The whole team had great stats on that run except where it mattered. And that is what people care about.

Big, huge, giant asterisk which frankly can not be brushed aside. There was something systemic about the play that did not work.

on ice shooting percentage and on ice save percentage generally revert back to the average for the player as they're not individual stats they are what happens when he's on the ice.

you don't have to care about them, but that doesn't make them any less real or the assumption of puck luck any less valid.