2017/2018 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Corral

The blind love for Dougie Hamilton is off the charts in some places of this forum. I'm just patiently waiting for the Flames to trade him for much needed help up front, so we don't need to continue with these conversations.

What if they trade him for an elite winger that you don't like either?

[Harry Lime]

What everyone wants is a player with a high pedigree and success at every level. High compete, nose for the net and not afraid of the dirty goal or tough areas. About to break into the NHL, so we can get him at a discount, age early 20s.

Basically Spencer Foo. But not our Foo, because we distrust our own system. We want someone else's Foo, and we are willing to pay top dollar. Find a Foo who plays RW for another club who had a breakout year in the AHL, and we will trade a solid defenseman for him. We will even throw in a Foo.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

It has been stated many times in this thread that you can't trade Hamilton because he lead the league in goals by a defenceman.

I was trying to prove that players who weren't exactly highly valued have managed to accomplish that feat.

It's one thing to trade him for a winger with right now 70-80 point potential, but as Cliff Fletcher mentions, there are no shortage of comments where an established 80 point player, 1st round pick, and good prospect need to come back to make the deal. A return far greater than what Chris Pronger was ever traded for.

If that's what people expect in a trade, they will be disappointed. That's why I suggest that the valuation seems off.

If there is a right winger who's similar in age who can score 30 goals and has some size, I think that would be a really good swap. But who is that player, and is the team who has that player wanting to trade that player for Hamilton, let alone give up two other good assets too?

I'll leave this alone. Cliff Fletcher said what I was wanting to, in a much more eloquent way.

Unless you get a 80-90 point forward you don't trade him...unless you want to make the team worse. Edmonton making a bad deal for Pronger a decade ago has absolutely nothing to do with Hamilton right now.

Flames were one Dallas win away from getting a 1st round pick for 2 months of Kris Facking Russell

If the Flames trade Hamilton it certainly won't be for a slightly above average forward.

Larsson-Hall is the type of deal they would be looking for or won't bother

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Corral

The blind love for Dougie Hamilton is off the charts in some places of this forum. I'm just patiently waiting for the Flames to trade him for much needed help up front, so we don't need to continue with these conversations.

Blind other than all the stats that back it up that Bingo just posted

maybe there is some blind hate because of a terrible Flames season

[Dan403]

Originally Posted by Corral

The blind love for Dougie Hamilton is off the charts in some places of this forum. I'm just patiently waiting for the Flames to trade him for much needed help up front, so we don't need to continue with these conversations.

Don't hold your breath.

[GoJetsGo]

This is why we can't have nice things.

The extremely vocal boo-patrol minority are going to make this an insufferable summer on here. It's already in full force.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The need to disparage Hamilton is just insane in my mind.

He's not physical ... won't argue that.
Too many stick infractions ... won't argue that.

But there are 77 NHL defensemen that played more than 1250 minutes last year.

In that group of 77 Hamilton is ....

2nd in CF%
2nd in Shot differential
34th in goal differential
3rd in scoring chance differential
2nd in high danger chance differential

Someone above mentioned he gives up too many scoring chances.

he gave up the 12th least of the 77 in scoring chances against
he gave up the 10th least of the 77 in high danger chances against

he was ranked 56th in on ice shooting percentage and
62nd in on ice save percentage suggesting he was somewhat unlucky last season to be honest.

He's not going to wear the "C", but call him what he is ... a very good top pairing defenseman and at that age he's a unicorn.

Bingo I appreciate all of these stats. Praising them and reverting back to the luck argument however is not quite enough.

Consider how the Flames advanced stats translated to success. It didn’t.

Remember that 10 game run, outshooting teams on average approximately 40-28, being outscored by 16 and being 3-6-1? The whole team had great stats on that run except where it mattered. And that is what people care about.

Big, huge, giant asterisk which frankly can not be brushed aside. There was something systemic about the play that did not work.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Bingo I appreciate all of these stats. Praising them and reverting back to the luck argument however is not quite enough.

Consider how the Flames advanced stats translated to success. It didn’t.

Remember that 10 game run, outshooting teams on average approximately 40-28, being outscored by 16 and being 3-6-1? The whole team had great stats on that run except where it mattered. And that is what people care about.

Big, huge, giant asterisk which frankly can not be brushed aside. There was something systemic about the play that did not work.

So naturally the appropriate response for a team that struggled to score would be to...get rid of their leading offensive contributor on the blueline? Bingo notes the stats to cover things that are harder to quantify (like quality of defensive play), but the "real" numbers show just how good Dougie Hamilton is (like goals scored, which for his position he was THE BEST IN FRIGGIN' LEAGUE AT). Every quantifiable aspect of Dougie Hamilton's game shows we need more players like him, not less. Unless you wish to handle things the Edmonton way and just stand on the ol "he's visually awful" stance...then, best to you.

It's a weird, weird world. People seem to want to blame the best players for the failings caused by the lesser players.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What if they trade him for an elite winger that you don't like either?

Isn’t that really the truth at the end of the day? Some fans simply don’t like the player and it really has nothing to do with his play. Hamilton could win the Norris Trophy and the debate here would likely center around trading him when his value is at its highest.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

This is why we can't have nice things.

The extremely vocal boo-patrol minority are going to make this an insufferable summer on here. It's already in full force.

What a joke.

Because some people think moving on from Hamilton could be the right move they are part of the boo-patrol?

I think Dougie is a good player but I think the Flames should try and cash in if they can because I don’t think he is as good as some people on here do. I think the Flames need another elite or potentially elite piece up front and I think Dougie is the only way to add that without Tavares magically signing here.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

So naturally the appropriate response for a team that struggled to score would be to...get rid of their leading offensive contributor on the blueline?

It's a weird, weird world. People seem to want to blame the best players for the failings caused by the lesser players.

I didn’t say that. In fact I have said I am in favour of keeping him generally, although for the right return, you consider it.

All I was saying is that trotting out advanced stats doesn’t seem meaningful in light of how great advanced stats translated to crap results on the ice.

The Flames D have scored more on aggregate without him. Say Gio gets back the 20 points he dropped when Gully came in. You don’t need to make up 44 points from Hamilton, you have 24 to make up. Sure, anything more is great, but I don’t see how any one player is indispensable, given other roster gaps and a return you can’t say no to

Also, if Hedman played 5 more games he probably would have gotten a goal and Dougie wouldn’t be tied with others for ‘best in the friggin league’.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

It's one thing to trade him for a winger with right now 70-80 point potential, but as Cliff Fletcher mentions, there are no shortage of comments where an established 80 point player, 1st round pick, and good prospect need to come back to make the deal. A return far greater than what Chris Pronger was ever traded for.

If that's what people expect in a trade, they will be disappointed. That's why I suggest that the valuation seems off.

Pronger was traded for Lupul, Sbisa, two 1sts and a 2nd. Lupul was a former top 10 pick coming off a 28 goal, 53 point year in his second NHL season. Sbisa was a young defensemen with top 4 upside. Two 1sts and a 2nd is more than what we traded for Hamilton.

So your claim that fans are wanting more than what Pronger was traded for is false. Lupul looked like a young 1st line RW, and Sbisa two 1sts and a 2nd is a fair amount of assets.

And that was with Pronger demanding a trade out of EDM. We don’t have to move Hamilton. If you don’t get a top 6 forward and at least one top prospect or 1st rounder you don’t consider moving him IMO.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I didn’t say that. In fact I have said I am in favour of keeping him generally, although for the right return, you consider it.

All I was saying is that trotting out advanced stats doesn’t seem meaningful in light of how great advanced stats translated to crap results on the ice.

The Flames D have scored more on aggregate without him. Say Gio gets back the 20 points he dropped when Gully came in. You don’t need to make up 44 points from Hamilton, you have 24 to make up. Sure, anything more is great, but I don’t see how any one player is indispensable, given other roster gaps and a return you can’t say no to

24 points to make up for d is pretty tough and if gg system is holding gio back 20 points a year how much would it be holding Hamilton back? Especially since he was only moved to the 1st pp unit for the last bit of the season.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I didn’t say that. In fact I have said I am in favour of keeping him generally, although for the right return, you consider it.

All I was saying is that trotting out advanced stats doesn’t seem meaningful in light of how great advanced stats translated to crap results on the ice.

The Flames D have scored more on aggregate without him. Say Gio gets back the 20 points he dropped when Gully came in. You don’t need to make up 44 points from Hamilton, you have 24 to make up. Sure, anything more is great, but I don’t see how any one player is indispensable, given other roster gaps and a return you can’t say no to

Also, if Hedman played 5 more games he probably would have gotten a goal and Dougie wouldn’t be tied with others for ‘best in the friggin league’.

Had Gulutzan used Hamiton on PP1 all season like any half decent coach would have done, he would have scored a goal or a few more than he did too - but Gully didn't, so Hamilton didn't and neither did Hedman.

So you believe Gio's decline in productivity is because Dougie is taking away his points? This is a weird train of thought to follow - or are you saying that without Gully, Gio's 20 points will come back? At that stage...aren't we better off with Gio and Hamilton's elite level of production? I'd likely look at Gio's point decline as a factor of his age, and again - because of Gulutzan's incredibly poor player utilization.

As far as advanced stats not being meaningful...well, then what is? His "regular" stats are also those of a very impressive defenceman. I understand why you can toss advance stats out the window for the team as a whole to a degree, because the team didn't perform well offensively - but Hamilton DID perform offensively. You could follow this path down the hole of "Well, Johnny's stats aren't impressive either because the team failed. We should probably get rid of him". I just fail to see the logic in dismissing advanced stats when all the "regular" stats also point to a high level performer.

[Kovaz]

Hamilton spends 90% of his ice time with Giordano, which makes it difficult to evaluate him as an individual player. Brodie was a top-10 D in the league until he was separated from Gio, and I'd wager we'd see a similar drop-off if those two were separated. That's really the crux of the argument: if Hamilton's trade value around the league is "a very good top pairing defenseman", but he's merely an offensive specialist being propped up by Gio, then we could get more than he's worth by trading him.

I don't think anybody is arguing against Gio-Hamilton's excellence as a pair, but if you think that's just Giordano being Giordano, and you can get a Taylor Hall or a Ryan Johansen for him, then that's a trade you'd have to take a long look at. Especially if you believe Gio-Brodie can be just as good on the top pair and someone like Kylington, Kulak, or Valimaki could step into the top-4 with Hamonic.

[Roof-Daddy]

It still baffles me that Hamilton was used so sparingly on the PP especially given our lack of right hand shots that can put the puck in the net. Bottles the mind

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

If that's what people expect in a trade, they will be disappointed. That's why I suggest that the valuation seems off.

Right, I agree. Sooo you don't friggin trade him then.

Originally Posted by Corral

The blind love for Dougie Hamilton is off the charts in some places of this forum. I'm just patiently waiting for the Flames to trade him for much needed help up front, so we don't need to continue with these conversations.

I don't even like Dougie that much I just felt the need to counter some of the totally ridiculous things being said, like the thing about Flames missing the playoffs means he sucks. Or the BS make believe stories about "bad character". Bringing up Delmore was a good one too. It's pretty clear a bad season under a complete dips*** coach has caused things to fester on here. Which I understand, it wasn't fun. But damn some of the things being said are getting a little goofy.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

Hamilton spends 90% of his ice time with Giordano, which makes it difficult to evaluate him as an individual player. Brodie was a top-10 D in the league until he was separated from Gio, and I'd wager we'd see a similar drop-off if those two were separated. That's really the crux of the argument: if Hamilton's trade value around the league is "a very good top pairing defenseman", but he's merely an offensive specialist being propped up by Gio, then we could get more than he's worth by trading him.

I don't think anybody is arguing against Gio-Hamilton's excellence as a pair, but if you think that's just Giordano being Giordano, and you can get a Taylor Hall or a Ryan Johansen for him, then that's a trade you'd have to take a long look at. Especially if you believe Gio-Brodie can be just as good on the top pair and someone like Kylington, Kulak, or Valimaki could step into the top-4 with Hamonic.

Well, if you can get Hall or Johansen, of course you look hard at that trade. Teams with elite forwards aren't giving them up though, unless there's a pending RFA issue, or a glut of forwards and a dearth of defencemen. But I don't think Brodie is anywhere near as good, therefore the top pairing won't be as good.

[Otto-matic]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It still baffles me that Hamilton was used so sparingly on the PP especially given our lack of right hand shots that can put the puck in the net. Bottles the mind

Because Dave Cameron was too stubborn to make the change. Didn't the PP take off once Cameron was forced to use Dougie on the PP?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Just so we are all clear, everyone is aware of the contract that Dougie would sign on July 1 this year right?

His contract is the biggest asset about him. I can’t fathom trading it for at least 2 years, and his value likely increases. It’s just crazy to me to move it.